Jamie Lee:
Welcome to Negotiate your Career Growth. I'm Jamie Lee, and I teach you how to blend the best of negotiation strategies with feminist coaching so you get promoted and better paid without burning bridges or burning out in the process. Let's get started. Before I encountered coaching, I used to think that doubting myself and doubting my worth were like sewn into the very fabric of my being. I remember being early in my twenties and thinking that self-doubt was closer, more intimate to me than an actual friend. My actual friends, they seem to have it all figured out. They seem so put together and confident and destined for happiness. But me, oh, poor me. Yeah, I was depressed a lot. <laugh>, oh, I was convinced there was definitely something wrong with me. I was certain of it because I was so accustomed to thinking that I wasn't good enough, that I have to work extra hard, I have to do twice as much as other people because I'm not good enough and I don't deserve what I want.
I'm not worthy of it. And these thoughts were repeated back to me through socialization, through culture that has women, especially women of color, especially marginalized people, second guessing and underestimating our value. And so these beliefs, these thoughts, became invisible scripts. They got embedded into my unconscious mind, and they had me feeling inadequate and anxious, and therefore acting small, sabotaging myself, avoiding, as opposed to pursuing opportunities to say what I want, advocate for myself, do what I want, and be who I want to be. And so when I encountered coaching in my thirties, I learned a concept that was like a light bulb going on in a dark room. It was a light bulb moment, which is that human brains, no matter how old you are, no matter how young you are, remain plastic. I learned about neuroplasticity, which means that human brains are capable of generating new neural pathways, new neural networks, new brainwaves that change how you think, how you feel, how you behave.
So you can be a different person, you can have a different career, you can make more money and get promoted. And you do this by telling new stories to yourself. You'd start thinking new thoughts about who you are, about what you deserve, what you're truly worthy of. And you can even access the unconscious part of your brain. You can change the part of you that creates chronic self-doubt, irrational fears, unwanted patterns. That is the work that I did for myself. That is the work I helped my clients do. So for me, when I did the work I worked on first, nudging, loosening, then changing the beliefs that seemed ingrained into me, that I wasn't good enough, that I don't deserve what I want. I consciously and, and I continue to consciously work on believing that I am valuable, that my self-worth is non-negotiable, it is sacrosanct, and I can feel confident in my work value, which is something that I create and I can trust in my capacity to create even more work value, because I have a brain that is plastic, a brain that can create new ideas.
And I work on believing I am enough always. And I know that there is a distinction between who I am and what I do. Yes, there's always gonna be room for improvement in what I am doing, in what I do, but who I am as a human. Now, just notice that this is before the identification with any particular social role like a mother, like a daughter, or a professional role like engineer or librarian. Who I am as a person, who I am as a human with a beating heart is always enough. I was born enough the moment I took in my first breath. And I will die enough the moment I exhale for the last time. And here's another one. I am the authority in my life. I require no one's permission other than my own, simply because I exist. This flies in the face of what socialization, what our culture teaches women and minorities to, to think.
We, we're supposed to, you know, kowtow to other people's authority over our lives. But no, you have the authority. I am the authority. I am the ultimate arbiter. I am the ultimate decider in my life, and therefore in my career because I get to decide what I do with my life. And finally, I deserve what I want. I'm worthy of my dreams. I'm worthy of my desires for me. These beliefs help me generate the courage to become an executive coach. And I wanted to become an executive coach because I wanted to help other women who struggle with the same self-doubt, the same chronic self-doubt, the women who struggle with the same limiting beliefs that I used to so struggle with. And that is why today I am so proud to share this interview with my client, Amy Scoville. Amy's story is inspiring, especially for those of you with a non-traditional background, especially for those of you working in male dominated workplaces.
Maybe you're the only or one of very few women, especially for those of you who are balancing motherhood with a professional career, you'll find Amy's story relevant and uplifting. And notice, pay attention to how, for Amy shifting her beliefs, having new thoughts about herself, new thoughts about her value directly translated into negotiation confidence and the impact that this negotiation confidence has had on her personal life, her professional life, her career trajectory, and of course her income growth as well. So I just wanna share what Amy has achieved is available to you as well. And this is because you too have a beautiful plastic human brain. So without further ado, please enjoy this interview.

Jamie Lee:
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the podcast. I'm so, so excited to have one of my favorite people, Amy Scoville on this podcast. Amy, welcome.

Amy Scoville:
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Jamie Lee:
Amy is a software engineer, and she and I worked together for about, I wanna say about year and a half.

Amy Scoville:
Yes.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. I think, and we first met, um, I think it was 2019 before the pandemic.

Amy Scoville:
No, I think it was I cuz I was in my new, I think it was 2020.

Jamie Lee:
Okay. Yeah. That whole, that whole year..

Amy Scoville:
Like it's just big fog. Yes.

Jamie Lee:
The three year period, 2020 to 2022. It's all kind a fog.

Amy Scoville:
2020 is when we, I attended a workshop that my company hosted for the women in my organization Yes. That you presented. Yes. And that is women we met.

Jamie Lee:
Yes. And it was all about self-advocacy and negotiating for yourself as a woman in tech. And, um, Amy has generated amazing results for herself. And I am so excited for everyone else to hear about, you know, what she accomplished and let's get started. Yeah. <laugh>

Amy Scoville:
Sounds good. <laugh>. All

Jamie Lee:
Right. So, you know, maybe you can, uh, bring us along in, in on your journey, your coaching journey. Tell us where you were in your career before you decided to get coaching.

Amy Scoville:
Yeah. So I had recently been hired at the company I was working at. And I had come to the tech industry through a non-traditional route. I had done a program that helped me learn to code. And then I had, through this program, received an internship and then eventually an offer for a full-time job. And I had been at this job for about two years when I met Jamie. And I was underpaid and feeling an immense amount of imposter syndrome, and also feeling somewhat stuck and probably not even realizing that I felt stuck because of my imposter syndrome. It just felt like an impossible task to move forward and progress in my career because I felt so underqualified.

Jamie Lee:
Which is so interesting cause you had made a conscious and intentional career pivot.

Amy Scoville:
Yes.

Jamie Lee:
You went, you mentioned the bootcamp.

Amy Scoville:
Yes.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And, uh, and by the way, would you mind sharing, um, you know, how old you were when you made that decision to go to coding bootcamp?

Amy Scoville:
Yeah, I, let's see, I was 32 years old when I completely changed career paths. I had graduated in social sciences and had been teaching preschool and was on track to become a marriage and family therapist.

Jamie Lee:
Hmm. So Interesting. I didn't know that about you.

Amy Scoville:
Yeah. <laugh>. It was a completely different career path. Entirely. And, um, I made the decision to switch to software development when I was 32 years old with kids. Two, two children. Yeah,

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. Yeah. So for those of you listening, you can make that career pivot at any age. Yeah. It's never too late. Right. And you're an example of that.

Amy Scoville:
Yeah.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And the, the thing that I wanted to highlight was, so before you decided to become a software engineer, you made this conscious pivot. You went to coding bootcamp, you equipped yourself with these new skills and, um, you know, capabilities, and you got a job, you got a full-time paying job. Yeah. And for some people that'd be like, dream come true.

Amy Scoville:
Right. You Know for a moment it did feel like a dream come true <laugh>,

Jamie Lee:
Right? Initially. Yeah.

Amy Scoville:
Yes.

Jamie Lee:
Initially. And, and then, and what you experienced is also so common. Your dream comes true and then you're like, wait, but I don't know if I really belong here. I don't know if I can really do it yet. I mean, that's, uh, some of the thoughts that you have when you're experiencing imposter syndrome, which of course can lead to feeling stuck and Yeah. Uh, like yeah. Kind of lost maybe.

Amy Scoville:
Yes, absolutely.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. So this experience is totally normal for high achieving women like Amy <laugh>. Like you achieve your goal and then you get there and you're like, oh no, my confidence didn't come along for the ride.

Amy Scoville:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Something notable as well about my experience at the time when I was hired, there were two other women on the team. Um, but I was the only person on my team that did not have a degree in computer science or information systems. Hmm. And shortly after I started both with women took other jobs, and I was the only woman on my team. So I felt really out of place, both because I was the only person who identified as female mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I was the only person whose degree was in something completely unrelated.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. Yeah. And of course, it makes total sense that you, you did feel the way you felt then. Yeah. And also, let's just notice the exact things that in your mind made you feel, oh, maybe I don't belong here. It was also exact things that other people would look at and say, wow, she's exceptional.

Amy Scoville:
Yeah. <laugh>.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. So for those of you listening to this, and if you are also somebody who is high achieving you, you know, achieve growth, but you're like, oh, no, but what if this thing that I have, which is different from everyone else, makes me like an outlier? And I just want you to notice, like, maybe that is also the thing that makes you really exceptional. And maybe your imposter syndrome is not a sign that you're doing it wrong. Your imposter syndrome is just a sign that you are, you know, breaking ground, you're trailblazing, so to speak. Okay. So I'm gonna come down my soapbox, <laugh>

Amy Scoville:
<laugh>.

Jamie Lee:
So Amy, uh, take us along on this journey, so let's keep going. So yes, that's where you were when you first encountered me, uh, in fall of 2020. And what made you decide to invest in getting coached? Because some people might be wondering, like Yeah, what made people, what makes people make that decision?

Amy Scoville:
Yeah. I, at the workshop that you ran, I volunteered to be coached. Uh, you had asked for volunteers to be coached on anything. And the first thing that came to mind was that somebody in my life owed me a significant amount of money. And I had been experiencing some financial hardship because of all of the money that I was not paid <laugh>. And I asked for your help in negotiating that, and I went and applied the principles that you taught, and that person paid me all of the money that they owed me immediately. And I thought, oh, wow, this is, this is easier than it felt when it was in my head about it. And maybe I could learn some skills for negotiating, standing up for myself, advocating without feeling extremely uncomfortable or like I'm being mean to somebody. Um, and so that's really what piqued my interest, was this positive experience I had with such a brief moment of coaching that I thought, well, let's try it. Uh, so I signed up for your free one-on-one consultation, and that also went very well. And that's when I decided to move forward.

Jamie Lee:
And people who are listening to this are probably curious. What is the principle that helped you negotiate and get your money back? Do you recall? I mean, I have a, I think I remember what it is, but I'm curious what, what you remember

Amy Scoville:
I, what I'm remembering about. I mean, that was so long ago now, <laugh>, but what I'm remembering about what shifted in my mind was that it was an opportunity to provide this person in my life a chance for self-respect as well. That in holding my own boundaries, this other person would feel like they can hold their own boundaries and follow through on their commitments mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that it would be a mutual benefit. Yes. I think previously I had been thinking that this would just benefit me and it would be a hardship on this person. And <affirmative> the shift that really gave me the confidence to request that this person pay me the money they owed was this idea that that person would also benefit from my request.

Jamie Lee:
Yes, that's right. That's right. We talked about the concept of self-advocacy being an act of service.

Amy Scoville:
Yeah.

Jamie Lee:
And, uh, I recorded a podcast about that. It's episode number one, <laugh>. So those of you who are new to this podcast, please go back and listen to it, but Right. And, and tactically I recall we, we practiced, we role played, you know, okay, what might they say? Oh, no, no, no. What would you say if for whatever reason, they pushed back on the request for you to be paid?

Amy Scoville:
Yeah,

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And, and the simple principle that, um, I recall I taught at the workshop was you just responding with an open, curious question. It's like not getting defensive, not debating the other person. Just asking them, okay, what is holding you back?

Amy Scoville:
Yeah,

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. What's in the way of you paying this money back to me? Right. Just like, okay, let's, let's just get curious. Yeah. Do you recall implementing that or was that, was there something else?

Amy Scoville:
I recall discussing that with you, but that was unnecessary because the way that I approached this person about the topic, they just responded immediately. There was no pushback. There was no, uh, negotiation or discussion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this person just said, oh, that makes a lot of sense. Mm-hmm.

Jamie Lee:
<affirmative>,

Amy Scoville:
I'll have that to you. Bye tomorrow.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. So amazing. So <laugh>, even even bigger lesson here is like, don't be afraid to ask for what you want.

Amy Scoville:
Correct. Yeah.

Jamie Lee:
<laugh>. Yeah. Don't be afraid to ask for what you want. Trust that it is of mutual benefit. And when you trust that, um, what happens, you know, is that you end up asking in such a way that makes it easier for the person to say, okay, I get it. Yes.

Amy Scoville:
Yeah.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. Amazing. Thanks so much for sharing that. So, um, Amy and I, we worked on your career goals. We worked on, you know, confidence and you had a desire to, you know, grow your income and get promoted. Uh, because I, is it okay for me to share, you know, as a mother of two, right? Yes. You had ambitions not just for yourself, but for the family. Yeah.

Amy Scoville:
Mm-hmm.

Jamie Lee:
<affirmative>, would you mind talking a little bit about the ambition that you, uh, that you did have? I mean, you still have, but yes. The things that you wanted to achieve specifically through coaching?

Amy Scoville:
Yeah. I wanted to achieve a better work-life balance. Not so much in the amount of time I was spending working versus the amount of time I was spending with my kids, but the amount of energy and stress I was investing in work was taking away from the energy and ability to be present that I wanted to have with my children. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So outside of the financial hopes, I also wanted to experience just a more ease in my life and more I wanted to feel more settled, comfortable, and not this constant anxiety that I didn't deserve my job. And if I didn't work myself into the ground, I would lose that job. So that was my first priority, was shifting the way that I experienced having a job as a single mom.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah.

Amy Scoville:
Additionally, I wanted to be able to provide opportunities for my children that required money and, uh, both current, you know, presently extracurricular activities, those kinds of things, but also future opportunities like college and on the income that I was making, that was very difficult to do. And so while it was the most money I'd ever made in my life, it was still as a single mom paying for daycare, et cetera, it was still pretty tight. And I had started to understand that I was underpaid and was interested in getting paid fairly as well as being promoted and, and getting paid more, or getting a raise.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. So you wanted to just to recap, unwind the feelings, the experience of imposter syndrome so you can feel more confident and at ease in your career. You wanted to, uh, negotiate for better pay as well as a promotion and provide in a more abundant way for your own children. Yes. And maybe you also set an example of, you know, what you can do.

Amy Scoville:
Oh, absolutely. That was something I really wanted to show them is that working hard and having the outlook that I was learning to have could Yeah. Could help you achieve your goals.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. So let's start from the end. So what did you achieve of the things that we just talked about?

Amy Scoville:
Yes. I, one of the top things I achieved was approximately 40% increase in my income from the time that I started coaching to now. And I'm actually currently working toward, I should be promoted in July of next year. So it will be more than 40% at that point. <laugh>

Jamie Lee:
Amazing. I'm so proud of you,

Amy Scoville:
<laugh>. Thank you. I was promoted as early as I had wanted to be. And

Jamie Lee:
Wait, I'm gonna pause you here because I recall you actually. So you got promoted, um, within the first year that we were coaching. And I recall you got promoted months ahead of schedule.

Amy Scoville:
Yes. So I had asked, and this might launch us into a different conversation and that's fine with me, <laugh>, I had asked to be promoted, this was early in the year, and we have a twice a year promotion cycle at my company. So early, early January that one of my first meetings with my manager, I had asked if I could be, I said I wanted to work toward a promotion and that I thought July would be a good time. And he said, I don't think you'll be ready by July, maybe January. Hmm. So then I set my goal for January and worked on basically proving that I was worthy of a promotion, which resulted in him surprising me and saying, you're being promoted in July because you have shown me,

Jamie Lee:
Wait, wait minute, I'm gonna pause you here again. Cause Yes, can we dive into this?

Amy Scoville:
Yeah.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. I, I definitely want, um, because there was more to this story.

Amy Scoville:
Yeah. There's a lot more

Jamie Lee:
<laugh>, there's a lot more to the story. So you thought you were gonna get promoted, I guess January, 2022?

Amy Scoville:
Yes.

Jamie Lee:
Right. And when your

Amy Scoville:
In 2021.

Jamie Lee:
Okay. January, 2021. Yes. Okay. And your manager, do

Amy Scoville:
You Oh, I'm sorry. No, it was January, 2022. Okay. We, I requested in January, 2021. Yeah. Hoping for a January, 2022 promotion once he said July was out of the question.

Jamie Lee:
Got it. Got it. So this, this all went down last year, 2021.

Amy Scoville:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Jamie Lee:
Okay. And this would've been the first promotion, right? Yes. And I recall, and tell me if I'm wrong, your manager gave you a specific reason why he thought that July, 2021 promotion was out of the question. Could we talk about

Amy Scoville:
That? Yeah, yeah, we can.

Jamie Lee:
I think that that conversation itself is a masterclass on how to negotiate how to overcome pushback.

Amy Scoville:
Yeah. Yeah. So when he asked, or when he said that he didn't feel I was ready for promotion in July, that he thought I could be ready by January mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I asked a curious and open question Yeah. In response and said, could you give me some more information about where you see a need for growth?

Jamie Lee:
Yes.

Amy Scoville:
And he said, I feel like your technical skills are not quite up to speed. He said, your soft skills are fantastic. Your technical skills feel like they're a little behind. And so then I asked an additional curious question and said, could you give me some examples of things you've seen where you thought I might have some room for growth? Yeah. Like some specific examples where my tech skills didn't shine.

Jamie Lee:
Right.

Amy Scoville:
And he did <laugh>, he gave me a couple of examples. I don't know if you want to go into the details of that or, um, but they were not, in my opinion, they were not solid examples and they didn't accurately reflect my technical skills.

Jamie Lee:
So let's just pause and remember that you were, you were at that time the only woman mm-hmm. <affirmative> in your team. Right. And you were the only person who came from a non-technical educational background. Like you learned it through coding bootcamp, right? Yes. So, like, it would've been easy for your brain to be like, well, of course I don't have this technical skills because, you know, I don't have an engineering degree.

Amy Scoville:
Yes.

Jamie Lee:
But

Amy Scoville:
I did think that initially, yeah. My initial reaction was, he's right. I have so much to learn

Jamie Lee:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But what shifted

Amy Scoville:
I, after that conversation, I couldn't let it go in my mind.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah.

Amy Scoville:
And this was an interesting exercise. I did this prior to meeting with you again because it was like another week before I was going to meet with you. And I couldn't focus on work because I was so consumed by this feeling of being misunderstood and misrepresented. Yeah. So I sat down and wrote a letter, which I didn't plan to send, and never did send to my manager outlining how I thought he was wrong, how I thought there was some bias at play, just kind of everything that I felt was inaccurate about his perception of me. And what that did for me was it gave me a lot of clarity on what was really the issue.

Jamie Lee:
Yes.

Amy Scoville:
Instead of feeling this tumultuous feeling of, oh, I'm not good enough. And see, even though I wasn't bad at the things he told me he thinks I'm bad at, that's just evidence that I am bad at my job. You know, just kind of this snowball of itty bitty shitty committee <laugh> feeling. Yeah. Yeah.

Jamie Lee:
So, and

Amy Scoville:
Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Jamie Lee:
I just wanna add, so people who listen to this, I'd imagine some people's, like their hairs are like rising up on the back of their necks because so many women encounter this sort of unconscious bias in the workplace where they're told, oh, you're not technical enough. You're, you're not leadership material, blah, blah, blah. So many of my clients tell me this, and I've experienced it myself too. And what Amy did was she's like, no, I'm gonna listen to my gut. Right. I'm gonna listen to my gut and, and, and trust that no, there, there is a mis um, there there is a mismatch between the reality of my contributions and my manager's perception.

Amy Scoville:
Yes.

Jamie Lee:
And even though part of my, the itty bitty shitty committee wants to be like, yeah, it could be Right. Instead of feeding the doubt, instead of feeding the imposter syndrome thoughts, what Amy did was dis confirmation.

Amy Scoville:
Yeah.

Jamie Lee:
Right. We like dis confirmed. Yeah.

Amy Scoville:
Oh, I'm so sorry, <laugh>. That's okay. Didn't mean to interrupt you. I was just thinking, um, it might be a good exercise to outline one of the examples he gave. Yeah. Um, and how we deconstructed that when I came back to meet with you. So we had done a team activity where we had a 25 minute timer, and he gave us a website to pull up and copy. And so it was a competition and whoever could make the best copy of this website would win. And that is the example he, for why I wasn't technically skilled. Hmm. And so some of the things we discussed and that I brought back to him were, I went through each person who participated in the competition and compared my result to theirs and my approach to theirs. And I discovered that several people on various levels had done about a similar job, but maybe had focused on something a little more obviously visible mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
And so the immediate perception was, oh, they did a better job. Where if I could walk through my process, it would demonstrate what a thorough and attentive developer I am to the details and to doing things accurately. We also discussed that that exercise was not representative of my daily work. That when I am working day to day, I don't have to under a time crunch, copy a UI <laugh> that I need to think through a problem. I need to make sure I'm covering all of the use cases, all of these other details that aren't represented in that small competition that we had. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
And that's where that bias really shown was that some of these other people, I would argue, did a poorer job than I did. But there was that underlying assumption that these people know what they're doing because they have a computer science degree mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that scrutiny was only directed toward me because it was kind of like confirmation bias, right? Like, Amy doesn't have a degree in this subject. She isn't experienced, she isn't skilled, and look at this evidence that that's not the case or that that, that that's the case, that she's not skilled. So those were kind of the things that we talked through. And I went back and presented that to my manager, and I wanted to give kudos to my manager for being a fantastic listener and a humble learner, because when I said, I believe there is bias at play, and when you compare me to this particular coworker who has similar amount of experience in this job, he didn't even do as much as I did in this exercise. But you didn't assume the same thing about him. And he was recently promoted, and his response, my manager's response was, wow, thank you for pointing that out. You are right. So kudos to me for being confident and saying those things, but also it was wonderful to have a manager who was willing to take some pretty painful feedback

Jamie Lee:
Yeah.

Amy Scoville:
And work through it.

Jamie Lee:
Right. Right. Yeah. Kudos to both of you, like you said. Yeah. You, you were brave enough. And I recall, I didn't even coach you directly on this. You did this all, all on your own, which is even more, yeah,

Amy Scoville:
I think I did <laugh>, but

Jamie Lee:
You just came back to the coaching session. You're like, this is what I did. I'm like, incredible.

Amy Scoville:
<laugh>

Jamie Lee:
You were brave to assess this situation thoroughly, objectively as a, as an engineer, as a scientist would. And then you presented the facts and you, you know, you said the hard truth to your manager. And then he was gracious. You were gracious in presenting that information. And he was also gracious in receiving it. And like, and like, yeah, you're right. I have this blind spot now. I now I notice it. Thank you.

Amy Scoville:
Yeah.

Jamie Lee:
And so talk to us about what happened as a result of that conversation.

Amy Scoville:
We began having more conversations about what are we looking for? What are the actual qualifications for this promotion? What needs to be demonstrated to be worthy of this promotion? And something else I pointed out to my manager along the way is that we had this spreadsheet with hundreds of little bullet points that would say, okay, a a P 30 does this, this, this, this, this.

Jamie Lee:
And peak 30 is the,

Amy Scoville:
Um, like a level three. It was

Jamie Lee:
The level, the band that you're in. Okay.

Amy Scoville:
It was the band I was looking to be promoted to. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I said, so kind of the understanding I was getting was, I need you to give me hard evidence of each of these bullet points that you meet this mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I went back thinking, okay, yeah, I can prove this, I can do this. I'll just show him, you know, all these things. Which was a good exercise. But I started to think, did this other coworker will call him Sam? Did Sam have to do this to get his promotion that he got a few months ago?
I went back to my manager and I said, Sam, who has similar experience to me in this job, was promoted recently. Did you ask him to provide evidence for each of these items on this spreadsheet before you were willing to submit his name for a promotion? Yeah. He said no.

Jamie Lee:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Amy Scoville:
I said, so I don't think that it is fair to be required to do this if other people moving from the same level I'm at right now to the next level, were not required to do that. I also reached out to people who had been promoted recently and asked them a few questions about the promotion process, such as, did you start the conversation about the promotion or did our manager, Hmm. Did you provide documentation or was this just a discussion? Things like that. And it, and it became very clear to me that my promotion process was going very differently. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> from the people who had recently been promoted in my organization. And so I came back to my manager with that information and I said, you know, I was wanting to understand how better to be promoted. And so I asked a few people about their experience and kind of what they did and how they quote unquote proved that they were ready mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it seems like this process is not going fairly for me.

Jamie Lee:
I love it. So not only did you advocate for yourself in terms of like requesting for equity in how your work is evaluated, Amy negotiated how the process, how the promotion conversation goes, how her promotability was evaluated as well.

Amy Scoville:
Yes.

Jamie Lee:
That's a masterclass right here.

Amy Scoville:
<laugh>,

Jamie Lee:
Right? Like, and it's just, I'm just gonna highlight the beautiful things that you did, um, which is you sought out, like you sought out data points, you reached out to your colleagues and people in your network, and you like, frankly, you just like, uh, collected information about how most other people who did get promoted, how their process went. So other people who are listening to this who are also interested in getting promoted, I highly recommend that you also try, you also take that approach. Go find out what the process is. Like, what is the standard process? What is the normal procedure, and are there deviations? And do the deviations reflect unconscious bias? If so, perhaps you wanna point that out. Right. And one, one thing that I wanna say is not everyone's gonna have a gracious boss like you do
<laugh> or you have had. So, um, I'm, we, we'll get back to it. I, I'm curious like what other advice you might have, but, um, I, I'm curious for you, what was the mindset shift, right? Because we started this conversation talking about when you first decided to get coaching, there was imposter syndrome. You're like, I don't have an engineering degree. I did this coding bootcamp and I'm the only woman in the team, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> wondering, do I belong? Right. What, what was the shift that happened in terms of your mindset that helped you be like, no, let's assess the facts of the situation objectively. Let's see if this actually is being, the process is being done fairly. What what was the shift for you?

Amy Scoville:
I think the number one shift for me was understanding that I had, due to my socialization as a female in the culture that I grew up in, I had been following this pattern of waiting for someone to recognize me.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah.

Amy Scoville:
And waiting to be seen, waiting to be told, you are doing a great job. Instead of telling somebody, I'm doing a great job, <laugh>. And there was a lot of shame around confidence. I felt that confidence, you know, due to my own conditioning, I felt that confidence was inappropriate. That, that it was unbecoming, that it was not humble, that talking about my accomplishments or telling someone what a great job I'm doing was d made me not as good if a person that I couldn't do that and be a good, humble person.

Jamie Lee:
And you were taught that you had to be a good, humble person who doesn't toot her own horn. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, who doesn't like who, who doesn't choose to be proud of her own accomplishments.

Amy Scoville:
Yes.

Jamie Lee:
Okay. And then what shifted?

Amy Scoville:
And then I realized, I mean, this was a little bit of a negative shift, but it pushed me in a positive direction. Okay. It was kind of this feeling of nobody has my back. I've gotta have my own. Nobody is going to advocate for me in this situation. I am the only person I can rely on to make this happen. Since then, the shift has become, I can recruit people to my team and other people can advocate for me, but I am the manager of that. I am the one who helps people feel confident advocating for me, those kinds of things. I don't have to wait for them to come to me. Right. So now I no longer feel like I'm the only one who is capable or who even wants to advocate for myself. But I do still feel the ownership for advocating for myself and for actively pursuing support from people who manage me or people around me. I started to ask people when they would say, oh wow, you did a really great job on this PR or you did, this was really great work. I would say, thank you so much. Could you email my manager and tell him that

Jamie Lee:
That's a boss move. I love

Amy Scoville:
That so much. Yes.

Jamie Lee:
Everyone, listen, please start doing that.

Amy Scoville:
<laugh>, it was very uncomfortable.

Jamie Lee:
Let's just pause and notice again, it was mostly men that you're working with. So what Amy did was she cultivated male allies on purpose.

Amy Scoville:
Yes.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And you chose to feel great about it. You're like, I'm gonna have my own back. I'm gonna help other people support me.

Amy Scoville:
Yes. Yes.

Jamie Lee:
So fabulous.

Amy Scoville:
And in this process, one of my coworkers, it was International Women's Day, and he reached out and messaged me and said, I am reading all of these things on Twitter from women and their experiences in the workplace, and it is painful for me to see the inequality. Yeah. And I'm curious, how can I be an advocate for women in the workplace? And I said, talk them up to their bosses, <laugh>. That's what, you know, compliment them to other people.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah.

Amy Scoville:
Notice their accomplishments and share that. Yeah. Like, you don't need to coddle them, but you need to make other men aware that women are also achieving great things.

Jamie Lee:
Starting, starting with Amy

Amy Scoville:
<laugh> Starting with me, please.

Jamie Lee:
That's right. Please

Amy Scoville:
Tell him, please tell our manager that I, I'm accomplishing great things. <laugh>.

Jamie Lee:
So good. So in my mind, when I heard you explain, um, walk us through the mindset shift that you had, what I saw was, you know, the Disney like the 1990s Disney Princess Fairytale. Right. Those, those princesses never spoke up for themselves. Some of them actually lost their ability to speak

Amy Scoville:
Yes. <laugh>. Cause

Jamie Lee:
They were waiting for, you know, a male's approval. And then you went, and then you shifted to like putting your own crown on.

Amy Scoville:
Yes.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. That's how I see self-advocacy. When you see it as an act of service. It's like also owning, uh, your own power, your own voice, your value, and then that empowers other people because you empower yourself. And that, I think, Amy, your story is such a great example of that. So tell us what has been the impact since you, you know, uh, started advocating for yourself, cultivating allies, right. Um, changing the culture of unconscious bias in your workplace. Like how has that impacted your life outside of work?

Amy Scoville:
Ooh, that's a good question. Um, it's impacted me in many, many ways. Um, I am much more comfortable taking time off of work. I'm much more comfortable leaving work at work and being home and present with my children when I am home with them. I have, I make a lot of money <laugh> now. And so I have the ability to, you know, buy tickets to some fun event with my children or purchase something that makes my life easier or that just makes me happy. Yeah. Um, I renovated my entire kitchen because I had this home where the kitchen was just horrible and I hated to go in there. And one of my favorite things to do is cook. And I did not want to cook in my kitchen. And because I felt so confident that I have this money and I will continue to have money flowing to me, I felt comfortable making the decision to invest in that renovation.
I cook regularly now. I That's amazing. Enjoy meals with my family in that kitchen. And it's all a ripple effect from learning confidence, from learning to be confident in my own decisions, knowing that I can decide how I use my wealth, and then it doesn't matter what other people might think was a better idea. <laugh>, um, <affirmative>, I met a loving partner and I credit some of that to learning to advocate for myself because I had been in relationships where I wasn't receiving as much care as I was giving mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when I started to advocate for myself at work, I learned to advocate for myself in personal relationships and ended up in a wonderful, supportive, equal partnership that is bringing me so much joy.

Jamie Lee:
So, so, so proud of you.

Amy Scoville:
Thank you.

Jamie Lee:
So proud of you. So let's wrap this up. Um, what advice do you have for other women and maybe, you know, some women who are in tech, maybe single mothers who are also, you know, navigating through their career journey. What, what, what advice would you have for them who want to improve their confidence and equip themselves with the skill to advocate for themselves?

Amy Scoville:
Yeah. I think one of the most important ways that I learned to advocate for myself, and that caused me some of the most discomfort <laugh> was making my contributions and accomplishments visible.

Jamie Lee:
Yes.

Amy Scoville:
So in my case, that meant contributing. When we had team demos, even though that made me want to run away screaming and jump off a cliff <laugh>, I would set aside time the day before and say, okay, I know I have this demo coming. I know that in the moment I will freeze and I won't know what to say. So I'm going to prepare how to present my work in a way that sounds intelligent and that makes people aware that I'm doing something <laugh>. Um, so I would say a conscious decision to increase visibility.

Jamie Lee:
So good. Yes. Conscious decision to increase your visibility. Yes. And if it feels awkward doing it, just remember that it's due to socialization. Some of it is due to socialization. We've been taught to, you know, not be seen. Well maybe be seen but not heard.

Amy Scoville:
Yes.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. So just, just let it be awkward. If it feels awkward, you're doing it. Right. And also, one last question for you. Um, I, I wanna address, you know, some people who are listening to this, they're like, this is, I wanna be able to do this, but I don't think my boss is as gracious as Amy's boss. Right. I, I don't think my boss is gonna be willing to listen when I point out unconscious bias or discrepancies or unfairness in how my promotability is assessed. And I'm curious if you have any ideas or suggestions about that.

Amy Scoville:
I do. Um, I am so grateful and very fortunate to have, I'm no longer working for that manager, but to have had a manager who was willing to discuss these things with me, willing to listen. Uh, there are others in my organization who are in power, who do not have the same attitude. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And one thing that I learned and taught myself and worked through with Jamie is letting go of seeking their approval.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah.

Amy Scoville:
So instead of trying to get them to agree that I am valuable, just believing I'm valuable and letting them either notice that or moving on, I did start before, before things settled, I did start to look for other positions. I did start to apply and interview at other jobs because I knew that my skills were valuable and I wasn't going to stick around somewhere where that wasn't acknowledged.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. So good. Yes, I a hundred percent agree. Um, first work on self-validation. Of course, this is something that I work with all of my clients on every single co coaching session. And also at the end of the day, it's totally okay for you to vote with your feet

Amy Scoville:
<laugh>.

Jamie Lee:
If you have decided if you like, you are everything in your body, your intuition, your intellect tells you, this is just not the place where my contributions are going to be acknowledged and valued. This is not where I'm going to be heard a hundred percent Okay. For you to vote with your feet. Amy, you are such a fabulous human being. I just love talking with you and I'm so happy that I had that amazing privilege to, you know, coach you. And I know there's just been so many rich nuggets, you know, negotiation nuggets and just career, uh, advice that I know people are going to find so valuable from this conversation. Thank you so much for your time today.

Amy Scoville:
Thank you for having me. And thank you for the impact you've had on my life. I tell people all the time that I owe so much gratitude to you for the way that my life has shifted so dramatically and how much happier and more in charge of my thoughts I am because of the work we did together. So thank you for your coaching. I received

Jamie Lee:
That deeply. If you enjoy this podcast, come to jamie lee coach.com, j a m i e l e e c o a c h.com to get your free ebook. How to ask for a big pay raise and get it. And if you want expert guidance in your corner to help you achieve greater self-confidence and greater career satisfaction as you grow your skills in negotiating, leading and influencing as a woman professional, I invite you to book your free one-on-one sales call with me to find out how executive coaching can help you do exactly that. The link is in the show notes. Talk soon.