Mastering Negotiation Skills for Career and Relationships with Maggie Reyes

Jamie Lee  
Welcome to negotiate your career growth. I'm Jamie Lee and I teach you how to blend the best of negotiation strategies with feminist coaching. So you get promoted and better paid without burning bridges or burning out in the process. Let's get started. 

Jamie Lee  
Okay. I am so so excited. I don't know excited doesn't quite capture it is like my heart feels like it's expanding. Because I have with me my own mentor, my own former coach, but in my mind, she's alright, she's still coaching me. We were just having a conversation about that. And her name is Maggie Reyes. Maggie, welcome to negotiate your career growth podcast. And to tell our audience about the amazing all the amazing things you are is impossible. But Maggie Reyes, she is a life coach. She's a certified, I don't know you're like double triple certified master coach now.

Maggie Reyes  
Hi, everyone. So I'm a double certified coach in the sense that I did two full complete coach trainings, one of which was 600 hours. And then advanced certifications, which we both have in feminist coaching. And I'm just, I'm a coaching nerd and a relationship nerd. And for everyone who's listening right now, I think what's relevant to us to podcasts about negotiations is my career before I was a coach was in human resources. And I think there's so many overlaps, and so many things that apply. What I currently do is I am a marriage coach. So I help women who are typically type a very driven leaders have better relationships. So I think that's how I would introduce myself relationship nerd, coaching nerd Hello,

Jamie Lee  
I can so relate to you. And those type A people are listening to this podcast, they want to advance their career. And, you know, many of my listeners also want to enrich and expand and just improve their personal relationships, not just their working relationships, and sometimes their working relationships, our personal relationships. But in any case, we were just talking about how Maggie used to coach me, she coached me directly one on one when she used to deign to coach people.

Maggie Reyes  
I still do I still have a handful of private clients, who knows when you're listening to this, whether that will still be true. But in 2023, that is still true.

Jamie Lee  
Okay. 2020, Maggie coached me, I was her client, I got coached on my relationship, my personal romantic relationship, and it was life changing. But beyond that, she, she and I also you and I also are coaching nerds, relationship nerds. And so what I really took away was beyond the relationship, she, you helped me become a better coach. And even now, you know, years into my coaching practice, whenever I have a tough day, I'm like, Oh, I could have done better. I asked myself, What would Maggie say? And Maggie, would you would you tell us one more time what this really means?

Maggie Reyes  
So Jamie was telling me that and what I said was you can always use my voice, I'm happy for you to use it. But what you're really doing is you're asking yourself, what would the compassionate, loving, powerful part of me say? And you're just labeling that part of you, Maggie, which is fine. But it's really what would you do when you are at your most compassionate, your most loving and your most powerful?

Jamie Lee  
Absolutely. And the thing that I learned the biggest takeaway is that the relationship that you have with yourself...

Maggie Reyes  
 yes, 

Jamie Lee  
right, impacts... that is the core relationship. And then from there, you can have a better working relationship with your employer, from there you can have a better romantic relationship, family relationships, friend relationships, right? But yes, so many of us because of gender socialization because of patriarchal conditioning. We don't have a great relationship with ourselves. We don't know how to relate to ourselves really well. We don't know how to talk to ourselves from the most compassionate, powerful loving place. And for that reason, asking myself what would Maggie say is like a hack.

Maggie Reyes  
Yes. It's like a it's like a way in. It's like a doorway. Yeah. 100%. I love it.

Jamie Lee  
Yeah. And so for, for people who are listening or watching this, you might even think about who...who was a person that I admire? And sometimes when I ask my clients, who's been a great leader to you, who's been a great mentor for you, sometimes they tell me, it's the rabbi, sometimes they tell me it was a previous boss, and sometimes they tell me it was their sister, right? So you could even ask yourself, Okay, what would that person say to me now? What do you think about that?

Maggie Reyes  
Oh, my gosh, I had a situation once in a Facebook group, there was drama, and a group that I was in and had a situation lens where I was super triggered about this thing that happened. And I sat myself down, and I said, How would Oprah handle this? Like, if Oprah was, quote, unquote, attacked, which is the way I felt that day? How would she respond? And it was such an eye opening thing because it wasn't my natural response, like my natural response would have been like, (inaudible) well back. And Oprah, in my mind was like, you would not concern yourself with such matters, you have more important things to do in your life. And I was very not calm in that situation. But my inner Oprah was very calm, very centered and was just like, this is just not  something that's worth your time? Why are you wasting any time on this at all? And that was such an eye opening thing to see that I can access a different voice inside of myself, and that I can be highly activated, but that part of me could be calm at the same time. Yeah. So that is my main example.

Jamie Lee  
I love that. I love that. So yes, even if you are extremely, extremely talented at coaching and mentoring people, you can get triggered, you can get activated. And you can also make a conscious decision about which part of, which voice you choose. So good. Thank you for sharing that. But let's go back to the beginning. Let's go back to...

Maggie Reyes  
Yeah. 

Jamie Lee  
Tell us more about your journey. You started in HR. Right. You started in HR? You were working for a luxury cruise line, I heard.

Maggie Reyes  
Yes. Okay. So I'll tell you a little bit right before that. So I fell into working in HR when I was 21 years old, I started as a receptionist at a law firm that did corporate transactional law. And I worked my way up from receptionist to training director over the course of about nine and a half or so years. And so I was training lawyers. So if you can just imagine that's like herding cats would be the same thing. And then from that training position, I realized I wanted to do something different, something more. And then I left that role. And I ended up in the cruise industry. And I just want to normalize like career changes, hiccups, side lateral moves, like all those things, when I left that job, I went to another job that did not work out, which will be the job that shall not be mentioned, that did not work out. And then I went to a temp agency. And remember, I had left as a training director of this law firm. And now I'm like temping. And I was like, Well, this is this is what I'm doing now. And I went to a temp agency, and they placed me at a cruise line, where I was like, the temp that never went away. So I was there for like, almost a year. And my boss at the time, was like, I'm gonna find the budget to keep you like, if you're able to be patient with me, like, I will keep you and she did. And then I stayed there for about six years, which was amazing. And then from there, I went to work at a beautiful company, it's called The World, which was kind of fun, because then I was like, the HR manager for The World be like, a fun little way to talk to people. And The World is a luxury residential ship. So it's the size of a cruise ship, but it has like, multimillion dollar residences on it. And that was my last job in HR, before I became a life coach. So that's a little like the shortened version of lots of drama and high points and low points and things like that. But one of the things I think is super relevant to your podcast, to everyone who's listening, is one of the things that happened at the world that I think is useful to think about when you think about negotiating, is someone in a different department got promoted while I was there. And I went to my boss inspired by seeing this person get promoted. And I, well, first I went through, it's an injustice, I should have been promoted, you know, I went through like, all of the levels,

Jamie Lee  
 They should have given it to me without me asking for it.

Maggie Reyes  
Right? They should've given it to me without me asking for it, exactly right. So I calmed myself down. And then I got strategic. And I went to my boss. And what I said was, instead of saying, I deserve it, you know, more than this person, or less than whatever, then this person, instead of comparing myself to other situations, I had really nothing to do with me. I went to my boss, and I said, What are the milestones I would need to reach in my role to be considered for a promotion,

Jamie Lee  
So good, I'm just going to echo that. So people can really take that in, maybe write it down. "What are the milestones that I would need to reach in order for me to be considered for a promotion?" So good.

Maggie Reyes  
Yes, and at the moment, you know, it was kind of a surprise to my boss, she didn't know I was gonna ask her that. And she said, Well, let me think about it. And, and so she did. So it's not like all fairy story tale. You know, I just asked him that it was there. She thought about it. We met again a few times. And then we made a plan together. And we said, this milestone and that milestone, and then, you know, everybody in a corporate environment has to justify their decision or their request or funds or whatever, for the budget to someone else. So she's like, how do we make this you know, undeniable, right? What are the milestones that you would reach? That would be like, of course, anyone would approve this? Anyone would be happy to say yes. 

Jamie Lee  
It was undeniable. I like that. Yeah.

Maggie Reyes  
Undeniable. So that's a great way to think about for whatever you're working on in your career. in your life right now is like if you want something like how can I be the undeniable choice for that thing. And so that's what we did. And so I did the I did the milestones. And I got promoted. And what was really interesting is the place I used to work. Before I had applied for promotions, they had a very corporate setting where you had to, it wasn't like you talk to your boss, or like you applied for the positions that were open, that were higher than yours are sort of like super, super, super structured. And there are a couple times I applied for things, and I never got them. And I think this is also super important for everyone listening is that it could be the place you are right now is not the place where you're going to grow. Because I had worked there for six years. And I did get promoted within my role multiple times, like from like, one, two and three of what I was doing. But it was very clear to me that I wasn't going to go beyond that in the current structure that they had. And for me, it was really essential to like, go somewhere else. And go there. And so within a year of working there, I got promoted, it was beautiful is very fast.

Jamie Lee  
Yeah. Excellent. Yeah, I love that. And I just helped a client. I help smart women who hate office politics get promoted and better paid. And I just helped the client get another bump. like last year, she got promoted in title. Yes, this year, she made sure that she got the pay band bump that she didn't get last year, right. So it's like very strategic and thinking about from HR perspective, like, what are all the levers? What are the milestones? What are metrics? What are specific things that we can negotiate to continue growing in your career? And like you said, sometimes the best moves is to vote with your feet. 

Maggie Reyes  
Yes, sometimes the best move is to vote with your feet. And there's the sometimes I'd love to hear what you think about this, Jamie? Sometimes it is good for you to be patient and work with someone like when that that person said, I'm gonna find the budget for you. Or when my boss said, Let me think about it, we'll make a plan. Sometimes patience is part of the process. But I think especially as women, anyone who's socialized as a woman, sometimes we access on being too patient. And so even when I'm coaching someone in their marriage, I think about milestones in so many different ways. And I think about what can we look at as progress points, what can you see as milestones that things are going in the direction I want to go. So your client who got the title change, it's like, okay, this is a milestone, we're going in the direction I want to go, I'm going to be a little bit more patient to see how the money pans out if I like what I'm doing. And I want to do more of that. Before I vote with my feet. I love to hear your thoughts about that, like nuance of when is it good to be patient? And when is it good to to make a change to be? 

Jamie Lee  
Yeah, I love this question. And I think the answer is, what are your thoughts about loyalty? Because in my career, I have encountered extremely hard working, diligent, dedicated professionals who are women, and who would say, but I have to be loyal. And then sometimes that loyalty is an impact of gender socialization, where you're taught to like, keep your head down, do good work, wait for somebody to give you that recognition. Carol Frolinger, she's a negotiation scholar, she calls it Tiara syndrome. But when we think I have to be patient, and I have to be loyal. And I think that's when you want to question that thought, because loyalty is never two sided.

Maggie Reyes  
Oh, that's so good. I might have been loyal to myself. While I might be loyal, loyal, like, that is so good. Okay, I'm processing this for a second, I can be loyal to the person. And I can be loyal to myself. And if I'm being loyal to the person at the exclusion of being loyal to myself, That's everybody needs to slow down and check on what's what's happening, right?

Jamie Lee  
Is this patience sort of actually like self negation that's being presented as patience? Whereas the opposite would be sometimes when you're like, Well, someone don't give me a promotion, they say, I'm just gonna quit or I'm out the door, if you know that they're not going to give me what I want. Right? That's like the, the extreme opposite end of that spectrum, where it was all about me.

Maggie Reyes  
Right?

Jamie Lee  
As opposed to, am I willing to figure out like, what's going on beyond this, this team beyond my, you know, work situation, what's happening in the economy? What's happening in the department? What's happening in the company, right? Am I curious to find out about what else is happening, and be willing to work that through right, I think in that case, that's where patience will really bear great fruit because your willingness to think through strategically and objectively all the different factors will not only help you get the goal that you want, but help you become a better leader. A better... 

Maggie Reyes  
yes 

Jamie Lee  
Team leader, a better company leader, a better industry leader in the process. So Yeah, I think that's my answer.

Maggie Reyes  
I love it so much. And as you were talking, I was thinking there's such a beautiful parallel between marriage or long term relationships with someone, it's really the same. It's these are the things that I want and I value am I being loyal to myself? While I'm being loyal to the other person? And I see milestones of progress, are we moving towards those things are not. And that can so deeply inform how you make decisions about what you want next, and how you decide whether it's whether you stay or go, or what staying looks like, even in a job right? What staying looks like might be different, depending on where you are and the milestones that you've reached. All that Oh, okay. Well, you had stuff you wanted to talk about?

Jamie Lee  
Yes, I have learned so many amazing concepts, and frameworks directly from Maggie that I have incorporated that I have relayed on to my own clients, I realized, hey, my mentor, Maggie Reyes has taught me this when I was getting coached on my relationship, and one of them is the power of one. Yes, it's such a powerful concept, the power of one. And I want to discuss with you how, again, this applies not just to relationships, romantic marriage relationships, but in order all sorts of relationships, including work, because work is a human ecosystem, right? So tell us about the power of one and what it means.

Maggie Reyes  
Okay, so what's unique about the power of one is the way that I teach it, it actually is a theory or a hypothesis that exists in psychology. That's based on systems theory. And the hypothesis is when one element of a system changes, the other elements in the system will respond to that change. So how they respond to that change is going to be different in different scenarios, but they will always respond to that change. So if you imagine if you're at work, and I used to do this when I was at work, imagine this Friday, and you bring doughnuts for everybody. Right? And then everybody I said it, and then for those listening on audio, Jamie immediately smiled immediately. It's like that warm, fuzzy feeling, oh, doughnuts. Yeah, right? One person will have an impact on the other people just by bringing that doughnut energy, whatever we want it to be, we're having a meeting, everybody's freaking out about the budget for next year. And then one person was like, let's get to it, we're gonna figure it out. And all of a sudden, the energy shifts, that's like the power of one like at work, there are very practical, simple things that you can do at work that would bring the power of one to work, and then you see how people respond. So I'm gonna pause there. But your thoughts,

Jamie Lee  
I find that so fascinating. I love that you brought the donut analogy, to describe power of love, because another client of mine, she's a leader in the medical field, and she presented to me this is like a counterpoint. Yeah. And she, she described to me how she read this Cornell University research paper that talks about the status leveling burden of high status women. And really, simply put the research talks about how high powered surgeons, women surgeons, they feel this pressure to like, make nice to do extra stuff, to placate or to be friendly with the nurses and this other, you know, technical staff. Otherwise, you know, there's rife, there's inter professional, strife, and then and then it gets hard for the surgeon to advance her career. And so she said, I don't want to bring doughnuts. Right for what you're saying, I love what you're saying. Because it's like, doughnuts can just be doughnuts, you could see it as a power move. Yeah, or you can also see it as it's a status leveling move, right. It's like how we frame it, how we think about it totally impacts how we have that experience.

Maggie Reyes  
And I want to say, I love that you brought this into into the conversation because it's never about doing things that are not genuine to you. So the person who doesn't bring doughnuts could be a very like no nonsense direct person who doesn't bring doughnuts, but then mentors, her residents and teaches them how to get what they need, so that they can enjoy their career or, or looks out and as an advocate for the nurses when they're being overworked or over scheduled or something. So like, bringing doughnuts is like a metaphor, you can actually do it. But it's also a metaphor for the way you lead will impact everyone else around you. And so you could lead in a very no nonsense way. And you can have someone completely ineffectual who brings doughnuts every week and doesn't isn't actually a good leader. Right. So I love having the nuance of holding these two things. I think they're they're very connected. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Well, what I was gonna add is that status leveler, to me, it's just it's sexism, period. Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's the internalized sexism of if a male doctor is direct and to the point, you know, and even abrasive. Oh, you know, that's just how he is. And we just put up with it. And then if a woman is direct to the point and abrasive Oh, there's a problem. She needs some kind of extra support, right? It's a very, I haven't read that particular research study, but it's just sexism is so rampant and so internalized that then we don't even call it out. As as, as, okay, we can call it whatever we want. But that's still sexism.

Jamie Lee  
Yeah, and we don't have to buy into that. But I think we started... I unintentionally detracted us from the power of one. Yeah, the system theory, even one aspect of the system can have an impact on on the entire system, when it chooses to change when it chooses, a different set of behavior. Is that right?

Maggie Reyes  
Yes, that's exactly right. And so in marriage, what happens is, a lot of times, I'll talk with people where maybe they're arguing all the time, or they're never communicating, let's take those two examples. And then I will help me, whoever I'm helping, either argue less, be more calm, engage differently? Or if they're never communicating? What can we communicate about? What can you start connecting over, so they change their approach, and then the person doesn't have to have done hours of coaching with me or done, whatever the curriculum is, the person is just responding to how this person is showing up. So that's how it would be on a personal level, on a work level? Absolutely. We've heard for years and years and years, right? That idea of like, show up for the job that you want, right? in HR, we'd have we'd have this this dynamic, which I'm sure we can talk about. Now next, which is the person who wants to get promoted, who does not lift a finger doesn't do anything particularly special and comes to you and says, Well, when you give me the job, then I will show you how great at the job I will be versus the person who says I want that job. What do I need to do to get that job? Do I need to volunteer for a project? So I need to show you something different? What do you want to see in my next project that will put me into consideration for these other types of projects, showing up for the thing you want. Same power of one, you have now taken charge of your career, or directing your career, which is having your career but directed by people who don't care about your career.

Jamie Lee  
So good. So good, direct your career, instead of having your career directed by people who don't care about your career? I just Yeah, I want to call that out and echo it again. So good. And in fact, I want to talk to you about this anger scale. Yeah, I heard you teach on your podcast, really great podcast, the marriage life coach podcast, check it out. And I think it's really relevant because I work with people who hate office politics. I help smart women who hate office politics and when you're a woman, right, not only are you contending with office politics, you're contending with unconscious biases, sexism, racism, all the isms, ageism, right. And so, it is, it is enervating. It can be, it can be like, super anger producing. And as far as I want to suggest, like, it's, it's sometimes I have to coach my clients to be like, it's okay for you to be angry about this. Right? Instead of like beating yourself up instead of, you know, second guessing yourself ruminating, which is what I used to do. It's okay for you to be angry about it. But I wanted to talk to you because about the anger scale, because when I heard it described on your podcast, I was like, whoa, this is an eye opener.

Maggie Reyes  
It was for me too. So here's what happened, I was coaching someone who's very upset at her husband at the time. And what she would do and everybody think about if you do this too. Everything was the same level of awful. So if he left his socks on the floor that was equally as bad as if he like forgot to mail the check for the electricity that month or something like back when we had. So it was everything was always same level of anger. But if you think about the things that happen on the day to day life, and we think on a scale of one to 10 like forgetting to make sure we have electricity is probably a nine for me. And leaving your socks on the floor might be a two or three for me, right? But do I will go want to get equally as upset about these things. So I was coaching her and we were trying to work through like how could she manage her vast amounts of anger about all these different things because more than one thing was happening at the same time. Just like at work right? I've had difficult bosses I've had difficult co workers. I very vividly remember seething sitting in a cubicle next Someone who was just on her personal calls all day, like, how is it possible that we both collect the paycheck and at the end of the two weeks, she's just been in personal calls all day. And I've been like, working away, right? Like, I remember that feeling of seething. I wish I had the anger scale back. She was talking to my client, and we just in that moment, I was like, This is what you're gonna do for homework this week, you're gonna use a scale of one to 10. And you're just gonna, you're not gonna change anything about what you're doing with your husband, you're just gonna decide, is this a nine? Is this a two? Is this a three? How angry? Do I want to be about this thing?

Jamie Lee  
Can I tell you right there? Yeah, because it's so genius. You probably like not even thinking about it. But that question, how much anger do I want to have about this? You're presupposing. Which is you're just informing us that we have agency? 

Maggie Reyes  
Yes. All about agency. 

Jamie Lee  
Yes, we have agency over how much anger how much emotional energy we we give out or expand on these things that are not always in our control. Like, I remember I just had a conversation with somebody was telling me when she worked in finance, comments about her shoes from the boss, who never gave her any sort of support that just like really, really was like the, the tipping point, it was the thing that like she just remembers, even though there were so many instances where this boss was absent in terms of support and all that. But I recall, too, I recall, you know, hearing a comment about I wore a lacy top once. And it was like, I don't know, my anger was just like through the roof. But if he had the anger scale, I could have asked myself, How much how angry do I want to be

Maggie Reyes  
about this? Yes, yes. Yeah.

Jamie Lee  
Tell us more. 

Maggie Reyes  
So we actually pause. First of all, we pause and breathe. Physiologically, we pause, everyone together. Together, we're just gonna think about the thing that's making you angry right? Now let's do it together. Think about that thing. Maybe it was on your mind last night, maybe it was on your mind this morning, when you started listening to the podcast, write that thing? Take a moment, and we're just gonna take a breath.

Maggie Reyes  
And now we're going to ask ourselves on a scale of one to 10, how angry do I want to be about this? And no, there's no wrong number, you can be maximum angry about something that I might not be maximum angry, but that's okay. It's just how angry do I want to be about this. And then here's the part that requires discipline, it requires intention. It requires like mental and emotional work from our part. The part is this, I usually use six as my barometer. But you can use any of the numbers between one and 10. If it's a six or below. My next action, once I've given it a number is to do nothing. Nothing. Nothing. And I remember talking to my client about it, she was like, What do you mean nothing. I'm angry. It's a far, it's a very strong word. Think here's the thing. When we're angry about everything, and we try to like win every battle, we lose all the battles, we all know this, we've all experienced it, we try to fight every battle, we just lose all of them. When we're able to let some of those battles, go put them to the side, and then pick the ones that are worth winning, that are worth fighting for, they're worth going up for over and over and over and over again, we increase our chances of getting more of what we want. And for me as a coach, my number one goal in life is to help my clients get wherever they want. Jamie, same. That's all we want. All the things we teach you and all the things we talked about is to help you get more of what you want. So I have found that if you only action, the ones that are like, six and above, you get more of what you want. Now actioning doesn't mean I'm gonna go to my boss's office and go off on a tirade or whatever about the injustice of the thing. actioning is sometimes talking to your coach, sometimes it's deciding strategically, what's the best move here. Sometimes it's making a strategy for how you want to proceed. Sometimes it is, you know, speaking to the person setting a boundary, you know, talking about the lacy top it's like, listen, when you have feedback about my actual work product, come and see me you have any comments about my fashion style, you let me know when that's part of my job description and we can discuss it then. Like, sometimes it is that but many, many times it's pausing, breathing and then deciding what's going to help me get more of what I want and then doing that, whatever that looks like.

Jamie Lee  
So good. So good. I Love that. And I think this can help us create more self empowerment, free mental and emotional bandwidth. Right? Not just in your marriage, but in so many different types of relationships, including the ones you have at work or with work. Yes, you could be angry with your work.

Maggie Reyes  
Yes. 100%. And sometimes here's, it's true in marriages and long term relationships. And it's true in work situations. Sometimes there's many pieces of your job you actually love. Yeah. And that are fulfilling, and then you do enjoy doing and that you want to keep doing. And there's one or two pieces, like the politics, for example, that are just you have no patience for you just have, I don't know, the older that I get the zero tolerance I have for like, anything that sounds even remotely like politics, right? It's like, are we genuinely authentic, trying to create something here with whatever we're working on at work? Anything else? I just don't have the bandwidth. For,

Jamie Lee  
you know, this reminds me I did have a client who was upset that she went to a meeting, she made a comments, again, a comment that if it came from a man would have just been like, yeah, sure, you're right. But then she made a comment. And people are like, Why? Right? And people are saying, Oh, you got to do XY and Z, you got to do extra stuff, because there's something wrong with you because you make these comments, right. And my client, actually through through the course of coaching, I just offered her actually doing nothing is also doing something. Because she she realized her anger about it was actually quite low, because she realized at the end of the day, bigger picture, it was not that big of a deal. And people who really had a say in the course of her career, they all had her back and they're like, Oh, we got you. Yeah, that was strange. We don't know why that happened. But we've got you. So she decided to do nothing, but actually became like, wasn't she's like, going out doing nothing is doing something I don't have to exacerbate. And then she ended up taking a different approach, not the one all these laid off impulse people were suggesting to her and she she just made her working relationship even better by showing up with greater agency, more bandwidth, you know, less activation and more just like [inaudible], we're all experts here. We're all just experts dealing with other experts. So thank you for sharing that. That's so good. Yeah. So let's talk about the power the concept of requests, not demand. So I remember when you taught it to me. This is genius negotiation advice. Hey, this is what integrative mutual benefit negotiation is all about. And I absolutely love it. And so maybe, maybe we can zoom out. And maybe you can tell us a little bit more what, you know, what you mean, by requests, not demands. And I think you had another part to that. It was like, no complaints. And there was, Oh, yes.

Maggie Reyes  
Okay. So requests and demands are one thing. And then another thing that I teach is no complaining, and no defending, which is probably really useful at work. So we can talk about that next. But request versus demands is something that we often don't notice. It's very invisible to us. Where we are making demands, whether at work or at home. And they sound like commands, right? And if we have subordinates, we have people who report into us, sometimes it's fine that it sounds like like, go do this, right. It's like it's not universal, that you always need to do it in a particular way. And there's always nuance and anything that I'm talking about. But request versus demand is very specifically, is when we make a demand, there's usually an emotional price to pay for the other person, if they tell us no, or if they give us an answer that we don't like. So we give them the side, if we make a face, maybe we retreat or we get argumentative. They're just an emotional price to pay. And that's how you know that you're making a demand is If then your next thing that you do is some kind of punishment. Okay, emotional, verbal, actual actionable punishment to the person or request is something that includes a certain level of detachment. So in a request, there's no emotional price to pay at the end. Whatever answer the person gives you, the person could say yes, they could say no, it doesn't matter. And what happens is so many times in relationships, and if you think about how you like to be asked for things, I think it's very clear, like when I think about, I never like to be told, I always like to be asked, right I can immediately know if somebody's telling me you're asking me right away, and they can immediately know what I respond. Under better to, if we're able to switch on that part of our self awareness and lead look, am I making requests all the time? Or am I making demands all the time? When we're able to do that, we're able to create a better relationship with whoever we're asking things from, even when they are your subordinates, even when they do report to you, the more you make requests and negotiate how the thing is executed, what does it look like, in my role in HR, and now as a boss, having a team that helps me with my business? I think a lot about the front lines, like, I might want something executed, but I don't really know what it takes to execute that. And so I like asking people, Well, how long does it take? What does it look like? What would it require of us to do this thing? And then I'll have some wild ideas of how I think something should be done, then they'll tell me actually, that could take this isn't this do you want to use our time and our resources to do that? We could also do this. And that can be done in half an hour. I don't like oh, that collaborative. When you make a request, you invite collaboration, when you make it a demand, it becomes very dictatorial. And for most of us that want agency and liberation and equality, being dictatorial, isn't what we really want. We just don't notice we're doing it.

Jamie Lee  
I love this. And I'm curious. Yes. Because I was listening to you. And I was thinking about how many people who work in organizations or who work for anyone else? They would love to get more requests? Yeah, but they feel like they're receiving more demands. Yeah, it maybe the punishment isn't always emotional. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it can be emotional sometimes. Or it can be in terms of like gender backlash, for example, where you feel like, you know, they made this demand. And you said, No, that's not doable right now. And you know, your work assignments got reassigned, or you get reassigned, right. And so I love request, not demands from the perspective of the person who has the agency to make requests, not demands. And I'm just curious from your experience, and maybe this comes up in marriage coaching to where people feel like, they're on the other side of demand.

Maggie Reyes  
Yeah. What do we do? And when we're on the other side of demands? Well, first of all, you learn to negotiate. Yes. I mean, really, fundamentally, that's one of the things that you do is you want to negotiate, you learn to communicate differently, and then see what happens when you do that. And I think we were talking earlier about the milestones, right? You decide what matters to you, you decide, okay, this person they work with is very demanding, like literally demanding, but I like 15 other parts of the job, so I'll deal with it. Or I like 15 other parts of the job, but not enough to, to make up for how demanding this person or the situation or whatever it is, is. And so that I think it just influences our choices. Sometimes you work with it. And sometimes you have to vote with your feet, like you said earlier. So that's that's what comes to mind for me is when you're on the other end of that is it demands all the time is it demands when there's a deadline? It's like, we want to put some measurement around what is the nature and sort of the texture of us demands? Oh, yeah, go ahead.

Jamie Lee  
I recall, you coached me on this. And I thought it was so brilliant and genius, that you you observe a pattern of behavior. And then you ask yourself, what is the frequency? 

Maggie Reyes  
Yes, 

Jamie Lee  
What is the context? Yeah. Right. And what was one more... intensity? Yes, the intensity, frequency, context intensity, right? Because we have a tendency to sort of generalize, or assume, Oh, this person is just always demanding, oh, here, they are dropping socks on the floor. They're so demanding, right? I know, that's not a great analogy. But you get my drift, right, we have a tendency to sort of make a blanket statement. So genius, how you coached me to think about the frequency intensity context.

Maggie Reyes  
And that I call it scope. So when I was in HR, we thought about the scope of a role and the scope of different projects. And so for me in relationships, I think about this frequency and intensity and the context as what is the scope of this, like, how often does it happen if it happens once a quarter, and I can deal with it and it's fine. That's one thing if it's happening every day, multiple times a day that will impact how I decide what I'm going to do next about it. So that's why frequency matters. And then intensities, like maybe it does happen once a quarter but then when it happens, I have no agency at all and I started missing you know, family events are important things for me are my health starts to suffer or something like that. So that's why intensity also matters. We want to measure that together. And I think if you put both of those together then you arrive at that context in which this is happening, and then you can make a decision.

Jamie Lee  
So good. I hope everyone's taking notes here. And what I'm taking away is what Maggie, what you do is like, you help us approach a scientific mindset, out of love.

Maggie Reyes  
I like to mix evidence based things with intuition and your highest wisdom, and have the marriage or the complement of all those things. Sometimes, you'll have a very evidence based kind of idea. And you'll just be like, No, it's just not right for me. Always listen to that, or you'll have all the evidence that something is a bad idea. And you'll be like, No, I believe in this. I'm 100%. A Yes. Even though it doesn't make sense on paper, always listen to that. But when we're not sure what to listen to having some of these anchor points to help us decide, I found very useful just for me personally. And then very useful when I'm talking to a client is sort of working through something sick in the absence of knowing what to do. What's the frequency? What's the intensity? Let's check.

Jamie Lee  
Yeah, and, like for me, if you coach with Maggie, not only will your relationships improve, your career will improve as well. That is just a meta skill. 

Maggie Reyes  
You're building the meta skill. Once you've said no, to the hardest person in your life, to say no to it, just usually your partner, it's so much easier to say no to your boss or to your coworker. Like once you've had a really difficult conversation about something really intimate that you hold with a lot of tenderness. It's so much easier to then talk about a deadline at work. So it's very common, should have entered through any door. Yeah. And so it's same like when you work with Jaime, and you negotiate for a better salary at work or for a promotion. And then you have to talk to like, I don't know, the head of the soccer team for your kid. It's just so much easier to negotiate over there. Because you've practiced.

Jamie Lee  
Yeah. And my clients do tell me that they tell me Oh, I advocated for myself for the first time in my life. And it was nerve wracking, but I did it. And then I rode that wave to securing my dream job or having a tough conversation with my significant other. So you're right, so good. Okay, so before we wrap up, I want to ask you a personal question. 

Maggie Reyes  
Okay. Yeah. 

Jamie Lee  
You and I, we share a lot in common. We're both coaches. We're both coaching nerds, relationship nerds. And I learned that we're both highly sensitive people. Yes. Yeah. And we're also you know, people of color. And so I'm really curious. What do you have? What have you found to be useful in helping you balance who you are as a highly sensitive person? Somebody who, maybe you can tell us a bit more, but what I understand it to be is like, yeah, it's like, sensory inputs. A little bit is like a lot for us. Yes. Yeah, that's why you don't usually find me and Maggie and loud bars is way too much. I just fall asleep.

Maggie Reyes  
No, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Jamie Lee  
And at the same time, you and I, you know, we work with Type A people type in when we because we sort of characteristic as well. We're very ambitious. We're very driven. And so I'm just curious, what have you found to be helpful? I'm asking for a friend who's new, you know?

Maggie Reyes  
So, first of all, so highly sensitive, the HSP a highly sensitive person, there's actually a quiz online, you can take, you can Google it, and there's like 26 characteristics, and it took the quiz. And I had like, 24 out of 26. But when I read the things to my husband, who like observes me all the time, he's like, Oh, yes, yes. Uh huh. Yes. So it's kind of like we can we can see so my example for anyone listening in that maybe this is the first time you've ever heard of this is if I go to Macy's on a Saturday, and they have the announcements in one year and music from the perfume area, but then a different music from the shoe area. That is too much for me and literally have to leave the store. So I will go with off hours when everything is calmer and there's like, like literally less sensory input to process that give you an example of like, what does that mean? So for me, knowing that I'm highly sensitive person allows me to do things like that, like decide at what hours I will go to a place. I might love a restaurant. So like Cubans, which I am Cuban American. So I'm my dad is from the Philippines. My mom is from Cuba, and I was born in Puerto Rico. So I'm a very international person. But where I grew up was on a Cuban culture, which is very loud, like actually loud of noise level. And if you go to a Cuban restaurant a Saturday afternoon, that is a loudest place you'll ever be. So knowing that I'm sensitive to that before I had no words. I didn't really know why I didn't like to go at that time. But now I just go earlier or later, like I help myself manage some of that stimulus. I, in order to enjoy the experience more in order to be able to still have, you know, the food I like or the experience I want, or whatever that may be. So that's when me is having awareness about what the challenges and helps me sort of solve for that challenge.

Jamie Lee  
I love that I love that it's like, I think we're gonna end where we started, which is, you know about the relationship with yourself. Right? Thinking about which, you know, where's that voice? Or what is that voice that is most compassionate, loving and powerful. And it's like, acknowledging and owning Yeah, we have these HSP highly sensitive people characteristics, and we acknowledge it, we don't judge ourselves, we, we accept it. And then from there from a place of power, we make decisions about how and when we go about in the world.

Maggie Reyes  
Yes. Beautifully said yes.

Jamie Lee  
So please tell us Maggie, I am so happy that we had this conversation, you know, you will have taught me again, this was like a amazing refresher for me of all the genius of Maggie, tell us where can folks go? Where can where can smart type a women go to find out and learn more about you and the amazing coaching work that you do.

Maggie Reyes  
So the first place is my website is very simple. It's Maggie reyes.com. So REYES.com. MAGGIE, for everyone who's listening. And you'll see whatever I'm up to there. And I love Instagram. So I'm on Instagram at The Maggie Reyes. So if you're listening to us now and you loved what we talked about, I'd love to hear your favorite takeaway. You can tag us on Instagram, and we'll be so delighted to hear your favorite takeaway from today was so you can definitely find me there. And then as you mentioned earlier in the episode, I host a podcast it's called The Marriage Life Coach podcast. And they're all the examples are related somehow to like long term relationships. So if that's something that is of interest to you, you will love it if that's something of interest to you. Okay, I just want you to know what to expect if you subscribe.

Jamie Lee  
Thank you so much, Maggie.

Maggie Reyes  
Bye, everyone.


Jamie Lee  
What do people actually say when they negotiate for big pay raise? If this is you, I've got you. As an executive coach for smart women. I help my clients figure exactly this out. To help you help yourself. I've put together a completely free eBook How to ask for a big pay raise, which you can access right away from my website, Jamie Lee coach.com. That's spelled J a m i e L e e C o a c h dot com. In this free ebook, you're going to get to real client case studies showcasing how to secure a 44% pay increase in more 20 Easy to read pages that you can access directly on your mobile because you gotta prep on the go. And three simple questions for getting past in past with curiosity and creative brainstorming. So don't wait. Go grab your free ebook How to ask for a big pay raise on Jamie Lee coach.com and I will talk to you soon