No One's Coming to Save You: Reclaiming Self-Sovereignty in Your Career, Relationships, and Life with Sade Curry

Jamie Lee: 0:02

I'm so excited to have my peer, mentor and colleague, Sade Curry with me today. So just a few years ago, when I started to give these really amazing, useful, valuable negotiation workshops, Sade sat me down, and she gave me a reality check that was so tremendously useful. And it has, you know, the workshop, actually, you could hear the recording on this podcast, you could hear excerpts of that on this podcast, and I'll link to it in the shownotes. But she was so useful, and so helpful to me. And she's also given me such amazing feedback when I had heartbreak in my life, because of a, you know, a dating situation that had gone sideways. Let's just leave it at that. So, Sade, welcome to negotiate your career growth podcast. You help mission minded women over 40 date after divorce.

Sade Curry: 1:05

Yes, yes, I do. Thank you for having me, Jamie. It's such a pleasure to be here. And I do remember that conversation around your work. And you were just kind of like wanting some feedback. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I wish I had you when I was when I was in corporate. Every situation you were talking about I was like, oh my god, that was me. I have an example of that. I have an example. Of all of that. So yeah, so the work that you do is so so needed so important. In the world. It's interesting, like looking back, I was like, I wonder if I would have stayed in corporate. If I had a coach, like you if I could have made my career go where I originally wanted it to go. Who knows? But we'll never know.

Jamie Lee: 1:49

Actually, I'd love for you to take us on your journey. How did you become a coach who helps women over 40 days after divorce? Like maybe you can walk us through your journey from working in corporate or actually, you know, tell us where you come from? Tell us you have a bit more about your background.

Sade Curry: 2:08

Yeah, so I grew up in Nigeria. Born states, yes, born in the United States went to Nigeria when I was itty bitty, like two, grew up there. So for all practical purposes, my entire program programming and socialization is Nigerian, my parents are Nigerian. And so I came back to the United States when I was 21, married to my first husband at the time. And really, all I knew of the United States was pictures in our photo album, and then TV. And when I arrived, it didn't. My experience was not like TV at all.

Jamie Lee: 2:52

I have the same experience as you, Sade, I was born in South Korea, and then I emigrated to America with when I was almost eight, seven, turning eight. And I remember all of my mental images about America was Disney Paradise and Hollywood musicals. And I arrived, I'm like, Oh, wait, this isn't TV. Reality is not Hollywood.

Sade Curry: 3:15

I felt like Americans were the friendliest people on Earth. And to some degree, American culture is very friendly. But it's also very surface. Like I see it, so I knew people would embrace. So how are you? And you know, there was a lot of like, Hello, how were you? But not so much? Hey, let's have tea. Let's have coffee, hey, let's do lunch. Hey, let me introduce you to my friends. That was just so I noticed that I was at work, in contact with people at church, in the community. But he never went deep and coming from a culture where there was a lot of community, there was a lot of deep community, in fact, almost sometimes too much, where people get way into your business more than they should. It was very jarring. And I think I didn't know this at the time. I think I've kind of done some of the work after the fact to process my quote unquote, immigrant experience and realize that there was a lot of I don't want to use the word trauma, because, you know, it wasn't like the big T trauma. But I think there was like this chronic, underlying harm of disconnection that I was experiencing. I would say the first, probably the first 10 to 15 years of returning, I've been here, back here 25 years now. The first 10 to 15 years there was a hum an underlying hum of disconnection that I didn't know was there. It was very disconnected community wise, very lonely, but I didn't feel an acute loneliness. And also it's, it's up to you. It was chronic, but I didn't even feel it. because there was no outward indicator that I should I could be lonely or that I didn't have friends because I had friends. But those friends were not those friendships were not deep and they were not open. There weren't, there wasn't a lot of ability for me to open myself up and other people were not opening themselves up either. So there was a lot of I would say, there were a lot of connection problems, but then I wasn't aware that what was happening was a connection problem.

Jamie Lee: 5:30

And how did that impact when you did enter into the workplace? How did that impact your experience as somebody who was working in corporate?

Sade Curry: 5:40

Yeah, yeah, so my early experience in corporate I was a little bit it was a journey. You know, at this point, I don't really know, I think I was just sort of disconnected from my experience, like,

Jamie Lee: 5:52

even through your early career.

Sade Curry: 5:55

My early career. So definitely my early career was my early career was about the time I came, I came to the US at 21. You know, kind of, you know, how you kind of like have to transition your credentials, you got to shore up your credentials, six more classes, so that everything matches, so couple, two or three years. And then by time I settled into corporate I was about, I would say, 23, 24. And so I started working out I work in Customer Service, I was like, my very first quote, unquote, proper job was in customer service for as rent a car. And I moved up really quickly. I was hard worker. So I moved up from like, from customer service to international car rental service, and would have gone on there, but then I had gotten my it credentials at that point. And so I started working as a data analyst, made a pivot, I made a pivot, yeah, I always knew I was gonna make a pivot, I knew that like, my customer service roles, were just sort of like making money on the side, well, you take this class, and so you can get a real job, which, you know, you know, how we immigrants, our customer service is not a real job. You gotta be a professional Nigerians are that way, you gotta be a doctor, engineer, accountant. You know, doctor, any of those lawyer, I studied engineering, but I wanted to I hated engineering. So I wanted to make a pivot to computer science, which my dad didn't consider a real job, either at that time, you know, so but that was kind of like, I was like, Yeah, I'm going to do this. So then I got my first IT job data. As a data analyst, I moved into programming, then moved into business analysis. And then at that point, I started having children. So I had my first two children. And they were, you know, so going from like, age 23, to 28, five and four at the time, and it just became kind of hard. You know, the working all day. And of course, my relationship, you know, that ended in divorce was not an egalitarian one. We were not sharing duties equally at all. And he was not, he was not a very loving person. So all of that pressure was really hard. So about about that time, I decided that I was going to quit work, and stay home with the kids. And so I stayed home with my children for about for about 10 years. Until the divorce. During that period, I was a foster parent for a while. My ex I started actually started an IT training and contracting company like freelance from home. And it grew to the point that my ex husband was able to quit his job and kind of take it over. And so that so that was about a 10 year period from 28 to 38, where I was just kind of like home with the kids running the business that we started together, adopting kids, you know, just doing all the moms stuff, I had a purse with embroidered that embroider I don't if you remember the 31 bags that were it was there wasn't this multilevel marketing business. I don't know if it still exists, but 31 was what it was called. And they sold you purses that you embroider things on it. And I had a purse that had supermom embroidered on it. So I really did identify very strongly with my role as a mother. I was very proud of it. And an entrepreneur, and I didn't identify so much with with being an entrepreneur. And

Jamie Lee: 9:28

Can I pause you for your for a second because I just want to make sure I'm tracking this because I heard that you started an an IT contracting business that grew so much that your ex husband was able to like basically quit his job...

Sade Curry: 9:45

Yeah, he took it over. Yeah, but this is what being socialized as a woman will do.

Jamie Lee: 9:51

Hmm.

Sade Curry: 9:51

I didn't see it as my accomplishment. I didn't own it as my accomplishment. And he didn't own it as my accomplishment either,

Jamie Lee: 10:02

Whose accomplishment was it?

Sade Curry: 10:04

Well, there you go, as I was just socialized to do things to make people happy. And while I was at home, and I was, you know, taking care of the kids, he didn't acknowledge that my contributions were significant. And I because of my own internalized patriarchy and internalized oppression, I felt like I wasn't doing enough. So I was like, Okay, I'm not doing enough. I'm just sitting at home with these kids and cleaning the house and cooking. I really need to, like, do more. So I'll start this company, it was like this apology. So the identity from which I started, it was more an apology for not making money for not contributing to the house.

Jamie Lee: 10:44

Yeah. Can I just pause you here? And like, can you imagine that some a business that is an expression of an apology is so successful?

Unknown: 10:56

This is how amazing women are, and we don't know it.

Jamie Lee: 10:59

Yeah. And there's so many people who are listening to so many women, so many working mothers were listening to this, and they're nodding their heads? Uh, yes. Yes, I know what that feels, I can relate your, your I feel like I'm, I'm being called out right now. You know, I'd imagine there are people like that. So then... what happened, or what was the pivot, the pivotal moment that made you decide to become a coach, helping women date better?

Sade Curry: 11:26

So that came from my divorce so that those 10 years was holding it all together with the marriage and the business and everything and adopting,

Jamie Lee: 11:34

And adopting kids. So much work.

Sade Curry: 11:38

So when you're with someone who is not mature, and is not loving, and you just has their own lot of their own issues, and when you're like me, not only in my own brilliance, and in many ways codependent and dependent on my relationship for my validation. You get to a breaking point. And the breaking point for me was that I started to see Mike at this point, my kids were turning into teenagers and you know, teenagers or they become their own people. They want to be individuals, they talk back and I saw my ex husband starting to treat my daughter, who's oldest and my son somewhat the same way I was being treated. So it's so sad that I was willing to accept that behavior. When I saw my children being treated that way. I was like, Oh, this has got to stop. So I started setting some boundaries. He was not available for those boundaries. And so he filed for a divorce. I was blindsided. But it really was a wake up call for me that my thinking my mindset, the way I saw the world was not right. I was like, There's something wrong with the way I'm seeing the world. And so after the divorce, I, I hired a coach. And I went to a 12 step program for codependency and I started reading all the books. And at that time, there wasn't one resource that put things in the context of marriage and divorce and, you know, gender equality, that assault all of my problems. And so as I started piecing everything together about what my where my thinking was wrong, how I was oppressing myself how I was accepting behavior, that was not appropriate. I said, I gotta put this together for divorced women, or for women in difficult marriages, or women in abusive marriages, because they would have to read all these books to get it. And that's how that's why I became a coach. So after the divorce, I did go back to corporate for about five years after my divorce, but I always knew I was going to help divorced women. So I went, I worked for one of the big four accounting firms for five years. And so a lot of my stories that I might tell around corporate come from there, because I was looking at things from a very different lens at that point. So that's why I decided to become a coach. So towards the end of my corporate time, after the divorce, I started my coaching business, I got certified in trauma as a professional life coach, and also as a feminist coach with you. And I did that together. And I started putting myself out there like I can help you if you're divorced, divorcing thinking about divorce, and I can help you signed my first private like 10 Divorce clients. During that period, I started dating my now husband while I was dating this whole time. So there's a lot of dating stories with people, not my husband. And then I met my husband. And we kept up relationship off of social media. So people in the real world knew that we were dating but we kept it off social media. And so when we got engaged, we announced it on social media. And I guess all of the people who have been following my marketing as a divorce coach saw that and they were like, wait, what? You might you found someone, you're getting married. I want you to help me do that, too. And so that really took my coaching business. He sort of like it was sort of a catalyst in my message where I realized that almost divorced women, not all most divorced women really want to repair this, this broken part of their lives, quote, unquote, broken because you know, it was supposed to break because that guy wasn't right for you. They really do want to do over many of them want to do over. And I think for many of us that do over sort of represents that, okay, I wasn't the problem, I'm actually a good partner, I can actually handle a relationship. So I pivoted and decided to niche down a little bit further to help women date after divorce, because there were other day encode divorce coaches, many divorce coaches, I was like this, no one's taking care of the dating part of this, and I decided that I was gonna raise my hand and be the person who did that.

Jamie Lee: 15:48

Love it, love it. And so, you know, this is negotiate your career growth and your personal relationships, your romantic relationships, the divorce, that you're going through the dating that you do after divorce has an impact on your career as well, because these are all the different things that a woman a modern woman has to, a woman has to balance in her life. And I'm, and I'm curious, when you helped women through their divorce, did you also help them negotiate that divorce? Like negotiate settlements? Yeah,

Sade Curry: 16:21

I didn't help them with so there's a there's a little niche in divorce coaching, where attorneys, maybe attorneys term coaches, or actually help with the court part of it. But I have helped many women center themselves in the divorce. So a lot of what I have helped women with is asking for what they want, I literally am working with a woman right now, who is in the process you so they're splitting up, and it's somewhat amicable. And the process is for her to purchase her own home, he keeps the marital home. And I'm coaching her on not choosing the smallest, tiniest, cheapest house you can find. Because of that, what you know, not wanting to be a burden, or wanting to ask for too much not wanting to be seen as wasteful. And I have had to like talk to her and say, Hey, you're making this choice, not just for you, but for your children. You know, you're gonna want to choose a tiny house because you don't want to waste money, because you feel like you don't want to be too greedy. But the money in the marriage belong to the both of you. It is your money too. And so but our thinking is so deep, so ingrained that the money belongs to the man, and the woman is dependent on him for it. Shifting that thinking in a very short amount of time for her to be able to sort of like take up space and purchase a home equivalent to the marital home or at least close to it can be a journey. It sounds like a no brainer. But when you've been programmed and socialized a certain way, you're probably going to ask for too little most women. I know I asked for too little in my divorce I you know I settled for too little in my divorce. And so I'm I'm on a mission to make sure other women don't do the same way to do the same thing.

Jamie Lee: 18:16

And that's exactly a similar pattern that too many women bring into their workplace negotiation, compensation negotiation, right? Because the way you do one thing and one other area of your life you see in different areas of your life. So if you're always settling for less, or thinking, Oh, I shouldn't have to I shouldn't take up too much space, or I shouldn't be greedy, in a divorce settlement. Right? That mindset might also be showing up in how you advocate for your pay your raise your your compensation. And I'm curious yet, have you seen your clients also translate that confidence that they gained through coaching with you they gained through learning how to speak up and take up space in their divorce? And does that show up in other areas of their lives as well?

Sade Curry: 19:07

Oh, yeah, shows up so many areas. I think once they see that, oh, in this area, I wasn't advocating for myself. I wasn't self championing. I wasn't self protecting. I wasn't expanding and growing. They start to notice that Oh, my goodness in my family, and everyone just dumps their stuff on me. And I just pick up all their problems and do the work to fix them. They notice where they've been enabling their children they notice where they are settling for relationships that are not nourishing, the noticing in their friendships. They also notice that at work, yeah, right. They notice how they're up at 5am sending emails to prepare for the day. And then coming home after work, eating a quick dinner and then getting back to work to be able to prove themselves they noticed that they are never able to absorb the joy of their accomplishments, like they'll knock something out of the park. But immediately the anxiety comes back up, like, oh my god, now I got to do the next thing now that'd be the next thing. And so realize that no, you're enough as you are. You're 100%, worthy, 100% deserving of everything that you want, and everything that your peers and co workers are enjoying. You are deserving of that as well. And maybe even more, who knows?

Jamie Lee: 20:30

Yeah. And the thing that you mentioned about the merit, you know, the marital assets, the money, it's like, we both own this together. And just like in the workplace, you are contributing value, your work matters, your work is just just the fact that you're showing up on time, this huge of so much professionalism, value already just there by you showing up and you doing your work, you're contributing in a, in a real and significant way. So one of the comments that you made to me, when you were giving me feedback on my workshop material, was about hyper vigilance. And then I was like, oh, yeah, you're right. Yes. And then I remember when you first said it to me, I had this like, moment of clarity. I'm like, Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about, especially if you're a woman of color. And, you know, if you've been exposed to the same gender socialization that Sade has been talking about, and I can relate to that, too. Because pretty much all of us have experienced or been influenced by patriarchy. And I'm just curious, you, would you tell me a little bit more about what that was like for you? As you were going through your divorce, right? Becoming your own person. And you're working in corporate and I heard you mentioned, you worked at a big four accounting firm. Yeah, maybe maybe tell us a little bit more about what that hypervigilant experience was like for you?

Sade Curry: 22:05

Yeah, so, um, there are a lot of factors that played into my particular situation, but I think you'll recognize like a common experience in parts of it. So I, you know, I was going through a divorce at the time that I got the job. So I did come in with some anxiety, I got some anxiety going on from that, which definitely exacerbated the hypervigilance by itself. So other people may not experience it to the height that I did. But it's definitely there, because I think my other co workers also experienced something similar. So coming in, you know, into a company less like, you know, we just had, you know, we were like stars in the, in the, in the corporate world, like you, you mentioned the name of the company you work for, and everyone gives you a second glass like, dang, you know, that's amazing. As a woman, and as a woman of color socialized to feel like, I'm not quite good enough, a little bit of knocking, I don't necessarily think of it as imposter syndrome. But a little bit of, I feel like it's just internalized or pressure on having received the messages over the years that you're not quite good enough. Coming in, and then I'm, I guess, I'm 50% confident because I just know my abilities as a human. And then 50%, like, oh, my gosh, I need to make sure just I think I need to make sure that I am on point and all my i's are dotted my T's crossed. That by itself was already you could say a little bit of a burden that I came in with wanting to prove myself wanting to make sure that I did everything right. So then coming from the outside, you had things like people questioning my work, right? I remember sir. My last role was as a risk technology analyst. So I would, we would analyze technology being brought into the firm, for, like, just security, legal risks. We had like eight to 10, like departments we had to talk to, but I worked for my team, we were the risk till we made the final approval decisions, but then we liaise with these other teams to make the decision. But I noticed that, you know, when I would write a report, or when I would call it information there was there were just certain people who were scrutinizing my reports scrutinizing my emails. Like if there was a period, I remember this particular woman, if there was a period out of place, she would email me and tell me that there was a period out of place in my email. And I was like, in my mind, and so the hyper vigilance then kicked in because I was internally unsure of myself in some ways, and then this person was providing evidence that I should be unsure of myself. So then what that does is, of course, this was before my learning how to be coached or being coached or becoming a coach, I would take the action of double checking, triple checking, not because it was necessary for the documentation that was being produced, because it was all internal. None of this was client facing. So really were the periods where it did not matter what, because just having someone point something like that out to you was just so jarring, and upsetting especially because I didn't work for the department, my my boss had no problem with it. Thankfully, some other women have a situation where their boss is the one who's micromanaging and over scrutinizing their work. And so then I would like double check and triple check what I was doing or walking into work one day, and I don't even know if I ever wore open toed shoes. But having this HR person come to my team, when my boss was away, and like two of us, my some of my team member, we sat together she was not a woman of color. And then given us a lecture about open toed shoes, like looking at people's shoes, we are literally in the St. Louis like our our location was like very internal. Nobody cared what we wore when clients weren't coming into our location. But there were just all of these, like little signs that people were watching you really closely that people were taking note of everything you were doing. And that makes you feel like prey, it makes you feel like every little thing you do matters, every hair has to be in place. And without understanding that it was just oppression, it was just, you know, racism, sexism, all of the isms that were happening, I didn't have a way of creating safety for myself of trusting that I was okay. I had to look to these external signs, and they were the wrong signals. And hyper vigilance, one thing hyper vigilance will do for you is that it will make you focus on the wrong people. So at the same time that I had all these people who were picking out the unnecessary details and criticizing things, I had a ton of allies, which I realized later in my journey as I moved up, but when you're hyper vigilant, because you're trying to create safety, you keep your eyes on the on the saber toothed Tiger. And that is actually does not contribute to your success

Jamie Lee: 27:33

You don't feel, feel any more safe focusing on the perceived saber toothed Tiger. And sometimes the saber toothed Tiger is just like Annie in accounting, who's like, who doesn't have anything better to do than try to criticize your grammar, you're missing a period. Oh, we have to send an email about this. That's like, okay.

Sade Curry: 27:56

So and then the saber toothed Tiger, quote unquote, keeps you distracted from the positive contributions you could be making, from the positive connections you could be making from the people who actually appreciate your work, and are busy giving you compliments and recommending you behind your back. It keeps you from cultivating those relationships,

Jamie Lee: 28:19

which are some of the key strategies that you want to be taking, you want to be acting on so that you can continue to advance your career. So it's about redirecting your nervous system, redirecting your brain. And so tell me a little bit more about, you know, what really did help you I know you did, you know, choose the entrepreneurial route and you started your own coaching practice. But I'm curious, what helped you inside that experience? Because, you know, I coach women who hate office politics, people are listening to this. And they're like, Yeah, I know what this is like. And I'm curious what helped you.

Sade Curry: 28:58

Yeah, so coaching helped me So towards the end of my career, I left my job in 2020 to go full time as a coach. But I have started really getting coached seriously the whole time. But like, the, I guess, the biggest, more powerful coaching really started in 2018 When I joined our coaching community, and I started getting like some real serious coaching based on cognitive behavioral theory. And it was like really powerful coaching, I realized, oh, there are things that I can do. So one of the things that helped me was doing a lot of nervous system work. I would literally be at work. And I could feel the anxiety rising and I would get up I'd go to the bathroom. I'd go to there was one bathroom. I was like way out of the way. Almost no one went to that bathroom, and I'd sit on a stall and I would tap like emotional freedom. I will do tapping it took me five minutes or three minutes. my nervous system will calm down. And so that awareness that Oh, I don't have to be Fried, like nothing is really happening in my environment that requires this level of anxiety. Yeah, even though it's been triggered by these little things, there is no saber toothed Tiger. So learning some nervous system techniques that could help me lower the initial trigger wherever I came from was super helpful. So that was the first thing to I started cultivating relationships. So I do I am good at cultivating relationships. So I leaned into that I'm an extrovert. And I, you know, I guess from about age 16, I had read like Dale Carnegie's book, which, of course, there's some problematic parts about how to make friends and influence people. But he sowed the seeds that relationships and connections were important. So I started cultivating relationships and connections where I found them. So instead of trying to win over the people who were, who had thoughts about me that weren't helpful, I leaned into people who were friendly, and people who were open and people who were, who appreciated my work, I would call the guys in the networking department up and just say, hi, you know, and all of that there was plenty of those people, once I was able to pivot my attention. There are plenty of this, oops, I cultivated those relationships. I started asking, I started opening, I guess you could say, trying to open up value for my department based on my own contributions are my own work. And so within my department, we were evangelizing robotics process analysis. So we can like some kind of basically, you could say, automation within the company. And so I started evangelizing outside of even though that wasn't my role, I was making so many connections, I started evangelizing my department to other groups that I was in contact with. And so I really started opening up parts of the company that wanted what we offered. And I love that that was great. I got I was recognized for that in those groups. So then I went to my boss, and I was like, Hey, I'm opening up some of this, these requests, can I own those requests as portfolio of my own business that I'm bringing into the department? And he well said no, and took my, all of my portfolio and gave it to someone else. And so I was like, Oh, that's not cool. And so I had the conversation again, I said, really? Okay, maybe not right now. But what about long term? Because I knew I could do this as long term as I open up these roles, can I have these opportunities? Can I own my portfolio in the futures? Like let's make a plan for me to own a portfolio in the future? And the answer was again, no. It was like, there's just really no room for you to move up in this department. That was,

Jamie Lee: 32:51

yeah. That's really disappointing.

Sade Curry: 32:55

Very disappointing. Yeah. Right, disappoint you. I moved to teams. Okay. So instead of leaning on the relationships I was cultivating to improve my department, I simply leaned on those relationships, to move to a department where I would, I felt like I would have more opportunity.

Jamie Lee: 33:14

I mean, this is like a master class, by the way, what you just shared it. So I'm going to recap. Number one, coaching helps you regain your nervous system regulation, and be able to cultivate safety within you, you learned a really useful technique. It's a technique that I also teach my clients called Emotional Freedom Technique. And just so you know, this technique is super simple. You can look it up on YouTube, like so many different videos teaching you how to do it. And it has been proven to help people with, you know, normal amounts of anxiety all the way to veterans who have PTSD. So it's super effective and simple. I think it's it's definitely an example of self directed neuroplasticity, you know, how you can rewire your brain. And another thing I heard you say, the third thing is you actively chose to lean on people who already trust and like you, and you know, you cultivated allies. And then the biggest thing I heard is that you negotiated, you negotiated for a bigger opportunity. And I love that you negotiated from this value add perspective, let me, how can I add more value to these different departments? How can we offer them more of the benefit that we're already creating in this current department? And unfortunately, your boss didn't see it the same way. But ultimately, it was their loss because you got to vote with your feet. That's something that any woman can do. You can vote with, like divorce is voting with your feet. And you can also vote with your feet within a company and that's what you did.

Sade Curry: 34:52

Yes, yes. And I you know, I when when we when you and I were talking about, you know, doing this episode, I was like, I wonder if I could have gotten that Yes, if I had worked with Jamie, if I knew Jamie at the time, because I really just asked, and he said, No, there was no in between. And I know you have techniques to sort of make that conversation more robust and more fuller, and maybe more detailed. And so I've always wondered what would have happened if I hadn't had I didn't have any negotiation techniques. I was just like, Well, I'm gonna ask for this and see what happens. But yeah, so just I just wanted to put that in there where I think there, there is a possibility to negotiate with better skill that I did not have at the time.

Jamie Lee: 35:38

But I mean, yes, I can offer you some ideas. But at the end of the day, aren't you glad?

Sade Curry: 35:45

Oh, yeah.

Jamie Lee: 35:46

Right. Aren't you glad that it was a no. And it led you to the decisions and it led you to where you are now, where you're able to help? Amazing mission driven women? You know.

Sade Curry: 35:59

Not just that

Jamie Lee: 36:00

yeah.

Sade Curry: 36:01

The entire department was laid off.

Jamie Lee: 36:04

Hmm.

Sade Curry: 36:06

About six months after I left.

Jamie Lee: 36:09

Got it. So your timing, your ask, you asking for? And then you making the decision based on the "No"... It, What's the word? It's spared you.

Sade Curry: 36:20

It did.

Jamie Lee: 36:21

it spared you from being laid off?

Sade Curry: 36:23

Yes. Yes.

Jamie Lee: 36:24

So at the end of the day, it was a silver lining.

Sade Curry: 36:28

Yes. 100%. Everything worked out perfectly. I was very happy with the outcome.

Jamie Lee: 36:33

Yeah. Love that. So we don't need to change what has already happened. But for the sake of people who are listening to this, for the sake of people who are wondering, okay, if the circumstances were slightly different, more favorable, and I wanted to negotiate slightly in a more, what's the right word in a strategic way? I would just advise, getting really curious and asking questions ahead of time about, hey, what are your top concerns right now decision maker, or even thinking through by leveraged and leveraging the network that you do have asking around, and maybe have conversation with the HR person, maybe have a chat with the finance person, and sort of trying to get the lay of the land, so to speak, like, Hey, what's going on? What what's the what's the murmur? Right? And what seems to be the core concerns of people making these decisions. And then from that information, you can also, you know, just as you said earlier, taking stock of your wins, right, really allowing yourself to feel good about your own accomplishments and your contributions, and being able to convey that in a, you know, again, in a strategic way, in a way that is aligned with what the decision maker most cares about. And, and I just want to say, sometimes the decision maker isn't your direct boss, sometimes it's their skip level boss or their skip skip level balls. Right? It's sometimes like thinking about, okay, how do I tell her that message so that it really lands with them so that even if I have this conversation with my direct boss, they can relay something that will have their ears perking up?

Sade Curry: 38:24

Yeah, I hear you saying I, I if I'd had a bigger perspective, yes. I might have had more information that could have led to a yes.

Jamie Lee: 38:35

Yeah. But at the end again, at the end of the day, you're really glad it wasn't?

Sade Curry: 38:41

Yeah, ya know, for sure I am. You know, and it could have been a yes. And I could have still left, you know, yes, that's true. Yeah. But yeah, but thank you for sharing that. Because I think that really does help. Because I think that sometimes we take it personally, we feel like, Oh, it wasn't about me. It was about something I did, or they, my boss didn't like me, or my boss just didn't want me. But maybe there just wasn't enough information on the table. Maybe there were variables that we didn't take into consideration that we that we can learn the skill of collecting as well.

Jamie Lee: 39:13

And I imagine that you do something similar when you coach someone to date better, right? I, I saw that you you give a workshop on how to date with your values, right? So again, it's sort of that information gathering or clarifying ahead of a decision making conversation, right? Yes. Where there is a workplace negotiation, whether it's like, Hey, let's go out on a date. Right? It's like, are we coming to that conversation prepared, being clear on what's most important to us and what what are we getting curious about what they most care about what they value so that we can arrive at value alignment? So I know there are people who do a lot of these like dating analogies with negotiation and not to make it all about dating, or, well, what am I trying to say? We have a dating coach on the podcast, what I'm trying to say is, sometimes when we think about dating for women, I think we kind of run the risk of thinking about our values in, you know, in a different way, as opposed to our professional value and a perceived value. So

Sade Curry: 40:30

I think it's the same, I agree with you, it's all the same. But somehow we it's like, and I think it's actually easier for women to bring all of who they are to the professional arena. Because the professional arena seems to have a lot more room. Like, okay, if it's not, this company might be another company of things like so we're like, okay, yeah, there's a place where I would fit, okay. But it's a mistake, to not think that we when you're dating, because what happens because of just the tone of the gender narrative we've had for 1000s of years, women have been conditioned to force themselves to fit with whichever man is in the arena at that moment, but it's the same thing. Bring all of yourself to every dating encounter. And if it's not a fit, there is a place where there is a fit for you.

Jamie Lee: 41:23

Yeah, got it. Okay. So in that, in that sense, it's the same. Yes. And then And then, of course, there are differentiations, because we're not having a compensation conversation when you?

Sade Curry: 41:37

Well, we're having a chore conversation who's doing the chores around here?

Jamie Lee: 41:42

Actually, now that now that you mentioned it, that leads to because, you know, we do know that women do a lot of domestic chores and unpaid labor. So okay, so in that, in that sense, how you negotiate with your romantic partner, it may not be immediately financial, but I think it can have an impact on your overall satisfaction, the quality of your life, right?

Sade Curry: 42:09

Yes. And just like in the workplace, you're dealing with someone who's been socialized a certain way, as well. Through no fault of his if it's a man, you know, they have been socialized a certain way, as well. So like, so now you're dealing with your own socialization that, hey, I don't have to do all the chores. And then you're dealing with the fact that he's been socialized to not do any chores. And so really, it is a negotiation is a conversation. And I encourage my clients to have those conversations early. Not from a demand perspective, but from a communicating expect of expectations early, so that by the third date, or the fourth date, a man knows the kind of person that you are and the kind of relationship you're looking for. So you don't get six months in and find out that it's not a fit.

Jamie Lee: 42:57

Yeah, you know, you just reminded me very early in my career, I'm a South Korean immigrant, I did work in Korean companies. And there was this unspoken assumption, this unspoken rule that the women staff would prepare coffee or tea. And I resented that so much, because I had a feminist education at Smith College. And I'm like, No way. I'm not going to No, that's not right. And so just like you mentioned, I realized from that experience, that working in an Asian company is not a fit for me. Mm hmm. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for that. So is there anything else that we haven't yet addressed that you want to make sure that we do address here?

Sade Curry: 43:46

I think what I will say is like applicable in leadership and the workplace and in dating, it's just for women to understand that you've got to go on this journey of reclaiming your sovereignty and autonomy, just as a mindset like yeah, you know, we were born with it. And then he got taken away somewhere along the way. And there are very few people who don't have to reset and ask themselves the question, do I live as though I belong to myself? Oh, as if I belong to everybody who randomly comes my way? Or my parents or my kids or my husband or my partner or my boss? How am I living and really asking yourself that question and becoming aware of how sovereign you are because you really you belong to you.

Jamie Lee: 44:38

You belong to you. Yeah.

Sade Curry: 44:42

You're happier. you're happier, I think when you live that way.

Jamie Lee: 44:46

Yes. And in fact, there is a concept called Tiara syndrome that I teach. It's from negotiation scholar, Carol Frohlinger and Deborah Kolb of Harvard University and they talk about Tiara syndrome which is when you keep your head down and do good work waiting for somebody else to reward you someone else to give you the recognition but the Tiara never arrives because that's the reality of this world. We don't live in a Disney fairytale. And so how do we combat the tiara syndrome? We own our self sovereignty just as you said is that we put our own crown on, we belong to ourselves, our value we get to own that first for ourselves. And then that's when we can ask for the things that we want. Whether that is in divorce, whether that is in a dating relationship and even when it is in a workplace conversation.

Sade Curry: 45:36

Yeah, in my world we call it no one's coming to save you.

Jamie Lee: 45:41

Oh my gosh, it's the same thing in the working world. No one's coming to save you. I think that's gonna be like the

title of this podcast: 45:46

No one's coming to save you. Okay, where can people go to learn more about you and your amazing coaching work?

Sade Curry: 45:58

Yes, so I work with divorce women, typically right around 40 and above mission minded women ambitious successful who are wanting partnership and companionship so if anyone is interested in that work, one of the best places to hang out with me is on my podcast. It is the dating after divorce podcast with Sade Curry, it is on all the podcast platforms and Google. You can find me at my website SadeCurry.com Sade is spelled S A D E so there's no h in there SADECURRY.com. And you can find my my podcasts there my description of my work, other presentations that I've done for them just on all the socials just actually carry on Instagram shadow life coach on Facebook.

Jamie Lee: 46:48

Thank you so much today.

Sade Curry: 46:50

Thank you, Jamie.