Solving a Career Pivot: "I Never Get to the Second Interview" (Live Coaching part 3)

Jamie Lee:
Hello hello hello

It's great to have you back for another installment of my live coaching series. Today, we're diving into "How to solve a career pivot" something I often help my 1:1 clients do.

Career pivots can be intimidating, especially if you've been in one role or industry for several years. But trust me -- as someone who's made a few pivots myself (From supply chain to hedge fund to startups and to executive coaching and speaking ) -- I can assure you it's all about using the right tools at the right time.

In this episode, I'll take you through a coaching session with a client who attended my open group call.

She's working on her career pivot, and, actually, things are looking pretty promising.

She's got her resume out there, and it's working, because she's getting interviews.

But the problem is she's not progressing to the next stage. She's not getting invited back for second interviews.

So I asked her why she thinks this is happening and she gave me two possible scenarios. The first one was something she could do something about, and that's where the first tool - self-evaluation comes in.

I think in a sense self-evaluation is like brushing your teeth at night.

We all know it's good for us but sometimes when you're tired it's tempting to skip it.

Likewise, it's tempting to skip self-evaluation when you feel defeated by a lack of progress.

There's no immediate consequence. It's a bit like eating your vegetables -- not always exciting and no instant dopamine reward.

But deep down, you know it's gonna help you in the long run. It's so simple you can do it in a matter of minutes (just like brushing).

Next up, I introduced her to an anti-anxiety tool. (In fact, you can click on the 50-second YouTube clip I'm adding to the show notes to see this tool in action) 

Now, it's completely normal to feel nervous before a job interview. It's a high-stakes conversation, much like a salary negotiation. But here's the thing – for a successful pivot, you need to do two things consistently.
First, keep showing up. Keep swinging that bat. It's a numbers game, just like dating. The more you interview, the closer you get to finding that perfect fit.

Secondly, work on regulating those emotions, especially anxiety. I've been down the anxiety road myself, and I know it's easier said than done to "just relax." But I heard something that clicked – being relaxed isn't a snap-of-the-fingers thing; it's about putting in effort and consciously working on it. Relaxation becomes a byproduct of your brain's conscious effort.

Adding anti-anxiety tools to my coaching toolbox has shown me that sometimes, anxiety is what's holding us back from accessing our creative brains, advocating for ourselves in the best way we can, and showing up as our authentic selves.

When you're relaxed in the moment, you're more present and you have easy access to all of your cognitive powers. People can relate to you better, and when they do, they can see you taking the lead in difficult situations. They can imagine you as the manager, director, or VP that they want to hire.

So, with that said, stick around as we delve deeper into these coaching tools, and I invite you to try these tools on for size. See how they can make your career pivot smoother and more successful. If you want 1:1 support with this, come on over to JamieLeeCoach.com/apply for all the details on my coaching series.

Without further ado, here's the coaching snippet.

[music]

Jamie Lee:
 Nice to meet you, too. What would you like to be coached on?

Client:
So, I also work in pharma. I'm a consultant, I mean, health economist. And I've been casually looking for other jobs directly in pharma. And when I get my resume out, I'm actually getting, like quite a few interviews. And that's awesome. But I have been interviewed for this has to be in the last year like my 10th interview for director or associate director. And I feel as if once people see me that I never passed to the other. I never go past the other stage. And it's just not suspicious. But it's just concerning to me that this has happened so much that they they look at my resume, and they say, Oh, this is someone who can be a director...

Jamie Lee: Let me pause you right here. Okay. What is your best guess as to why that's happening?

Client:
And best case scenario is that I just have to work on my interviewing technique. And, you know, the worst case, which may be realistic or not, is that there's a bit of racism going on? Or, you know, I was told before that...

Jamie Lee:
I'm gonna pause you one more time. Like you said, it could be this or it could be that, right. So before we go into all the way into this, let's think about this first, just like something about the interview technique, right? And something a skill that I teach my clients is the skill of self evaluation. And, you know, it's really simple. It's like, okay, what did I do? Well, even if the outcome was not what I wanted, how can I validate the things that I am doing well, right. So I have more agency over, like, how competent I feel. And then I could ask myself, What do I think I could be doing differently or better? Right. So let's just do a mini one right here right now. What do you think about that? Is that oh, yeah, we'll do it. Okay. So can you think about like, the most recent interview that he did?

Client:
That was this morning.

Jamie Lee  

So good. Okay. Amazing. So, um, before we think about anything else, what do you know, that you did do? Well? Did you show up on time?

Client  

I did my Zoom cut out. So that wasn't that wasn't great. She didn't she seemed okay with it.

Jamie Lee  

And then did you come back?

Client  

I did. What did I do on the interview? She asked a ton of behavioral questions kind of to throw me but I'd actually prepared. And, and they answered, well, this was actually one of the better interviews, we'll see how it goes.

Jamie Lee  

Okay, so you showed up? You can, despite technical difficulties, right, and you prepared, right. So good. Okay. And what made what else made this better than other interviews? What made this interview better than other ones?

Client  

This Well, I was more prepared. As I said, I've had a bunch of interviews Previous to this, but also I just felt, I felt comfortable with her. She was a little she was like, 10 years older than I was. She was a woman. She was also working from home. You know, but it's, that's not always going to be the case. So if an old older white guy shows up in a suit, okay,

Jamie Lee  

I got a policy here. And now it's like, I'm gonna pause, pause, pause, pause, pause, pause, pause, because, right, we're still working on what what? Myself? Right, right. Yes. I mean, yes. So is there anything else that you're like? Yeah, I did answer those questions. I did have my stuff. I do have experience.

Client  

What did I do? Well, I'll share asked a lot of behavioral questions. So I was actually prepared. This time. I did a lot of homework. And I think that really helped this time.

Jamie Lee  

Right. Okay. Good. And what do you want? What do you think, is something that didn't go as well as you would hope?

Client  

I have been trying to, I've been videotaping myself on the LinkedIn interview thing. And I've been, I've received this feedback. And I agree that I come across as very cold. And like, extremely shy, and introverted. I've been told, you know, everyone I've been friends with has said, Oh, I thought you were mean, Smith, or I thought you were mean and judgmental, and you're totally not. So I've been, you know, the interviews have been trying to be more animated, and warm and smile, because apparently I just give off that vibe. Only because I have social anxiety, because I'm speaking to another person. So yeah.

Jamie Lee  

Hello, Smithy. I'm also Smithy. And I've gotten that feedback. Cold, kind of almost like a snob. Yeah, so me, and people don't realize it's not that like I don't like people are the like, I'm judging them. It's actually a you're a person and you're talking to me. Yeah. And I'm actually what I do know is that when I, when I give off that vibe, now, I'm not saying this view. But for me, it's when I'm in my head worrying about that's true. Right? And when I'm busy worrying about me, I don't have as much capacity to engage to really listen, right. And I want to just have just a small observation that I am making just in the like, the few minutes that we have been talking. I've just noticed that. And you can tell me if I'm totally wrong, it seemed like awkward for you to make eye contact.

Client  

I don't actually know where to look, is this eye contact? Or? Oh, yeah, you are. So into the camera?

Jamie Lee  

No, this is really good, right? And I want to just invite you to consider if for whatever reason, like looking into the camera or looking into the screen feels just a little bit awkward or odd. We watch this play and practice peripheral vision. screen up with the camera. With that said, you've mentioned in this conversation, that if an older white man comes onto the screen, you feel a little bit anxious. There, you have a tendency to experience social anxiety in general as well that I heard that correctly.

Unknown Speaker  

Yes. That's a good summary.

Jamie Lee  

Yeah. So um, we I don't think this is the time to get into the interview techniques. But knowing that you are strong, independent woman. Well, that's the Smith bow. Race. But what I do know is that you know, you're learning you're studying, you're practicing, you're doing your homework. Now, I'm just going to make a bet. That if you felt less anxiety going into those interviews, you would have more access to your creative to your, to your creative brain. Yeah. And to be able to, like be more just free. Or more relaxed, more engaging. Yeah. So with that said, I'm going to walk everyone through one more. Another tool, okay. This is another self directed neuroplasticity tool. This is a great one. Right? And this is something that has proven to be very effective with people even with smile, social anxiety to like PTSD. Okay, everyone, do this with me follow along. Okay. I want you to think about that one time, an older, you know, male joined the interview, right? And now, I know it's a little funny now, right? But when you imagine that again, what's the level of anxiety? If you had to read between one to 10? Where are you?

Client  

It's six or seven. It can function but yeah, it's like all of my effort to get Just calm down instead of thinking about how the interviewer is going to go,

Jamie Lee  

okay? Now this is gonna be a strange question, but hear me out humor. If you wanted to do you think you ratchet up to an eight? I'm not saying you do it now. But do you think you can't?

Client  

There was an eighth where he leaned back, and the first thing he said was, I don't understand what you're saying, Could you speak up and I, that's just my trigger. I hate it when the men tell me to speak up. After that, you know, I was just kind of at an eight for the whole, the whole event. horrible event.

Jamie Lee  

Okay. Okay. So you've been there? And the answer sounds like Yes. So now I'm going to ask you to pick up a small item on your desk, for some reason I have this

Client  

charger to pay eight, my kids like, how to write pencil.

Jamie Lee  

Perfect, this is good enough. Okay? Everyone follow along, okay, you got to take this item, you're going to pass the midline of your body and put it in your other hand. Okay, you're gonna pass the midline of your body put in your other. Now you're going to repeat this. This is called bilateral stimulation. In the reason why bilateral stimulation works is because anxiety is when one hemisphere of the brain is over activated. And so by doing this, what we're doing is stimulating blood flow and impulses to both sides of the brain. From the right brain, left brain, interesting brain, brain, right? Yeah. So that anxiety that you used to have, can stand the chance. And so let's just pause and check in this is pause here for we did this maybe, like 30 seconds. And now where's that anxiety?

Client  

When you asked me to ratchet it up to an eight, and I was thinking about that guy, and and now I'm able to actually focus on on you and what you're saying instead of being in a jumble. Yeah,

Jamie Lee  

yeah. So some of my clients practice this ahead of presentations. I had interviews, right. Yeah. And children also use this tool. And they do it like, below their desk. Yeah. Okay, so this is a tool that you have. Okay. And other thing I want to ask you to do that guy. Remember we did the movie screen exercise with Marlene? Yes. Okay, but that guy on that screen. Okay. And now, I wouldn't make that screen smaller and smaller as it recedes into the past. What's that like for you?

Client  

Now, you know, he's more like a bully, and not some VP that they rejected me his hugeness just kind of smile and a bit ridiculous.

Jamie Lee  

Yeah. Is that becomes even more ridiculous and maybe even silly. Right? Now, I want you to see yourself getting a little taller. Right? Because you have, sometimes you have to go through these interviews. You know, you just gonna go through them one after another. You learn and then you practice and then you learn these tools. Right? And then and then you practice some more, and then you just become more confident because you're like, you're done them. I know from experience. Yeah, yeah. Okay. What's your

Unknown Speaker  

what's my what

Jamie Lee  

was here for you now?

Jamie Lee  

Um, I have all those. So

Client  

before, I mean, even this morning, just the first five minutes, 15 minutes, whatever is was just wasted, I guess, spent just crushing anxiety. And so now I have a couple tools to just be able to focus.

Jamie Lee  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think you've got this. 

Jamie Lee 
As an executive coach for women, I'm super passionate about helping smart women who hate office politics get promoted and better paid. I do this through my unique combination of number one self directed neuroplasticity tools backed by science. Number two negotiation strategies proven to work for women by academic research in number three intersectional feminist lens that honors women's lived experiences. To learn more about my one on one coaching series and to book your free hour long consultation with me, come on over to Jamie Lee coach.com/apply. It's JamieLeeCoach.com/apply. JamieLeeCoach.com/apply. Talk soon