Jamie Lee  0:00  
Welcome to negotiate your career growth. I'm Jamie Lee and I teach you how to blend the best of negotiation strategies with feminist coaching. So you get promoted and better paid without burning bridges or burning out in the process. Let's get started. I have with me today, Dr. Jennifer Nash. And I'm so excited for this conversation on human leadership. And so before we dive in any further, Dr. Nash, would you tell us more about who you are, and how you arrived at this work? To get us started?

Jennifer Nash, PhD  0:35  
Sure, thanks for having me, Jamie. So super excited to be here. And I have spent, like the last eight years or so, writing this book, be human, lead human. And it's actually a compilation of everything I learned over the course of my career, and what I started studying in graduate school. So I could understand what led organizations and leaders to be more effective than others. And the underpinning of all of that is this humans framework. And the concept of human leadership that I've described in the book

Jamie Lee  1:09  
is to tell us more about what human leadership is, what is it and why the leaders need it now more than ever.

Jennifer Nash, PhD  1:18  
Yeah. So human leadership, at its fundamental, basic level, is the ability of people who are in a position to lead others and prioritize people rather than prioritizing profits or productivity or performance, or process. leaders today are in a position where the workplace has fundamentally changed since COVID. And we're not going back. It's like pandemic, it's like the pandemic open Pandora's box. And there is no going back to what that status quo was. And what we saw during that evolution of the workplace is that leaders had all of these tools in their toolboxes, to lead process to lead projects to lead performance, you know, and to lead productivity. But what they didn't have was tools to lead people. And as you and I both know, the tools to lead people and the tools to lead projects are very different set of tools. And so why it's important now is that for organizations to be effective going forward and for leaders to be effective at leading people and be the best leaders that they can be, they need to have these tools in their toolkit.

Jamie Lee  2:29  
Can you give me an example of one of the tools in the toolkit?

Jennifer Nash, PhD  2:33  
Yeah, so one example to me is building relationships. So when I did the research for my book, I found out that most leaders don't make time to build relationships at work. Many of them felt that building relationships was extracurricular. Some of them felt that building a relationship was something that they did at a happy hour, for example. Others felt like they're not being paid to build relationships that are being paid to deliver work. And yet others felt like, you know, I'm spending all this time in meetings all day, when would I even have time on my calendar to build a relationship with somebody. So there were all these different myriad of rationale and reasoning why people weren't focusing on building relationships. And when it came right down to it, there were there were just a handful of the hundreds of people that I interviewed, that actually had a strategic plan for how they went about building relationships. And further, what they thought relationships did in the workplace, you know, and that is critical is the glue that holds us together. They are they are they're what facilitates getting work done. The work is the reason for the relationship. And so shifting that thinking and shifting those actions and behaviors related to the thinking is what those outstanding leaders in my study we're actually doing to drive performance.

Jamie Lee  3:57  
So in the chat, before we hit record, we mentioned how more women tend to be open to these ideas, then, and as a coach for women, many of my clients, they do prioritize, they feel the relationship is what makes their job or their careers so fulfilling. They love working with their team with their supervisors, and they prioritize it and they cherish that. Right. And so I'm, I'm curious, when you say building relationship, like, how was that different from just showing up to collaborate with people on a project?

Jennifer Nash, PhD  4:37  
So I think there's a couple of ways that it's different. I think the way in which that collaboration is approached is also part of that relationship. So if you are looking at the person in front of you, for example, as an employee whose sole purpose is to deliver output for the organization, that's a very different mindset and a very different lens that you put on that part. person, rather than coming into that meeting, for example, and maybe first asking the person a question about how their evening went, because you know, they had something going on that night or, you know, their child performed in a play, or, you know, you they had their they have elder care issues, and they were having challenges, you know, and so maybe you know those things about that person, and you start off the conversation by just establishing that rapport in that way first. And maybe then the conversation goes to oh, well, how's the project going? And what are the chances, you know, so taking a look at how you think about the person in front of you is actually part of that relationship and how you identify the person, either just an employee, or as this whole human being, with, you know, hopes and dreams and all these different identities that they bring to the table?

Jamie Lee  5:47  
That brings me to negotiation, because when you effectively negotiate, right, and I think about negotiation as a leadership skill, yeah, leaders have to negotiate all the time. building rapport is one of the key first steps. And also, as a leader, as a, as a person who is managing and trying to work with other types of people, you have to build trust. And building rapport is once again, a key element of building trust in the relationship in the in the working relationship. Yeah. So I'm curious, based on that. Would you give us an example, maybe, maybe it's similar? Maybe it's something different? How do human leadership principles make a leader better equipped to negotiate for their career growth? Right, we already talked about building rapport. And I'm curious if there are other ways or tangential ways that come to mind.

Jennifer Nash, PhD  6:59  
You know, so one of the principles that I have in the me in the basic 10, that for human leadership is around this idea that organizations are places where people come to grow, and work, not just work. And in the past, we tended to think that, you know, you just you went to work, you did your work, and you came home, and maybe all that personal development or personal growth was happening outside of that space. And today, with human leaders, they really understand that organizations are places where people come to grow, and evolve and become their best selves, and work. And so part of that growth and evolution is understanding, where are you in that personal professional development spectrum? Who are you in that space? And where do you want to go? Being clear about that, and understanding where it is that you're starting from, and where you want to go, that helps you drive that career growth? And be clear about what could be the next step in your career path. Maybe you are a manager today, who doesn't have any leadership of people responsibility, but maybe you want to be a leader of people in the future. So what are the skills that you need to step into maybe a stretch role in your current assignment? Or step into that next path? And understand what is it that's going to help you be successful getting there? And so negotiating that career growth requires that you are clear about where you are, where you want to go? And what are the skills and gaps that you need to fill in order to get there? Yeah,

Jamie Lee  8:36  
and no human leadership principles they apply to all genders. It's a gender neutral framework. But I'm curious as the woman, what do you think, is a small action that a woman leader, take, for example, who would have been socialized to prioritize relationships, but maybe also socialized to sort of diminish her own contributions? Right? Those are the things that you encounter as a woman? And generally speaking, not all, but I'm curious, what do you think are some small, tangible steps that a woman leader can take to be more of a human leader?

Jennifer Nash, PhD  9:20  
So I think one of the very first things is that, you know, as women, we tend to deprioritize ourselves, put everyone else before us. And oftentimes, we're not even on the list because everything else comes before us. And maybe we're at the bottom if we're even on the list. So one of the things I would suggest or invite your audience to think about is, how can they prioritize themselves first, you know, as leaders, we have to lead ourselves first. That's another one of the principles the top 10 principles. And yet most people think well, leaders lead other people well, they do, but they have to lead themselves first in order for others to follow them? What is it that women can do to lead themselves first, right? What are the values that they're using, for example, to guide their decision making at work? You know, when you have all this noise coming around you and all of these different opinions maybe being forced on you? Where do you look to to make that decision for yourself? What is it that is helping you create that set of decision making principles, that helps you chart that course and chart that path? And in the book, I talk about that as your internal GPS? Here's that guiding you what does that look like? And so I would encourage your audience to think about how can they put themselves first and lead themselves first, so that they are then more effective in leading others and more effective at leading the business?

Jamie Lee  10:49  
Can you tell me a little bit more about that internal GPS, because I think it's really fascinating, I think is a useful concept, especially as women we've been socialized to feel like somebody else out there has more authority, as more knowledge has the capacity to judge us, right. And so I love the concept of internalizing a GPS, a navigation system that you decide,

Jennifer Nash, PhD  11:21  
exactly? Well, I'll tell you a story about one of my clients, I'll call her markeesha. I talked about her in the book as well. And markeesha was, you know, very successful, you know, person in her industry. And she was looking at, she wanted that next step in her career. You know, we talked about that a little bit earlier, she wanted to go to the next step. And she found out about this position that looked like it was going to be a good fit. And so she was talking with me about that. And I was asking her well, you know, how does that feel for you? Like, when you hear about that job being described to you and, and what it sounds like, she's, like, I said, How do you How does that feel? And she's like, Well, I'm not really all that excited about it. She's like, it doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling when I think about it, but everyone else around me is telling me that I should apply for it. And even my, like CTO is telling me that I should apply for it. And he basically encouraged me to do it within 24 hours, because the job is going to be you know, delisted right? And so she had all of these different people telling her around her Yeah, you should go and do this. But yeah, her internal system was telling her, there's maybe something that isn't clicking right here. You know, this seems to be a red flag. And, you know, when I dug into this a little bit more, you know, I found that, you know, we tend to, we tend to ignore the signals, we tend to ignore the data points that our bodies and our intuition are telling us, because we've been programmed and trained to think differently about that, that in other words, that the voices outside of us are the are what we should pay attention to whether that internal GPS and internal data system telling us, hey, there's something not quite right here. And so what happened with markeesha Was she went ahead, even though she had this internal warning system going on, she went ahead and applied for the role, and she got the job. And then there was a leadership change. And then there was new leadership that even came into the organization. And when they noticed that she wasn't really passionate about this job, there were some hard conversations that were held, and markeesha actually found herself out of a job. And so you know, I tell that story in the book, because I always like to highlight, it's so important that we have that internal GPS. And as women in particular, we have that intuition, we have that sixth sense that we need to pay attention to because it helps us stay safe. It helps us make decisions that are more aligned with our internal world. And there's technique there's usually dissonance when our decisions are not aligned with our internal world, weak sense that there's a disconnection between the external environment and our internal world. So paying attention to that internal GPS helps us stay on that track of making decisions that are right for us, and ultimately, will help benefit us and those around us. I love

Jamie Lee  14:14  
that because even just the concept of human leadership, it's about how do we humanize it as opposed to dehumanize our inner knowing our intuition, our internal guiding systems? And you know, the first thing that you said really, is still ringing resonating with me, which is that how do we deprioritize profit processes projects and prioritize the humanity because end of the day, it's humans doing the work. I mean, I think that's that's really a huge challenge to the status quo, because all these businesses companies there we're all striving to generate profit margins and satisfy shareholders and generate value for, you know, stockholders etc. So what do you what do you see that compromise? Well, I mean, I think thinking about it, because some of the clients, I coach, they work for startups. And they're like, we're cash strapped. And this giant corporation is sort of like, you know, pushing us around with their big demands. And we have to, we have to, you know, we have to stand firm. I mean, it's work, it's a lot of work, and sometimes that that working feel dehumanizing. Oh, absolutely.

Jennifer Nash, PhD  15:45  
Absolutely. You know, I, I think in many situations, it isn't, and, but it's what comes first, right? What is being prioritized, if you get the right people on the bus, and you have the people who believe in what you do, and in the mission, and then the values, it becomes much easier to then bring the profits and the products and the process and the prioritization into the equation. But if you're starting out with the wrong people on the bus, you are never going to get to that point. And as a startup entrepreneur, as an entrepreneur myself, like, you know, I have learned that sometimes the hard way, you know, I brought someone on, because I felt like they would be a good fit. But yet they really weren't aligned with the mission and the values and they weren't doing it for the reasons that I held important, you know, they were doing it for, you know, the money they would make. And that isn't how I drive my business. It's. So that was an example to me of, here's it, here's a situation where yes, I needed somebody to hit a particular deadline. But the other pieces of that weren't in place, and those were the human element pieces. And that was what made it not work. And so yes, I completely agree. You've got all this pressure coming at you from all these different places. And at the same time, not taking the time to make sure you have the right people in place will ultimately not help you succeed.

Jamie Lee  17:15  
I was pushed a client who really struggled with letting underperformance go. Yeah. And the reason they really struggled with being decisive in everything else, they were super decisive the workload they took on in terms of holding themselves accountable to achieve, you know, really high expectations and standards and working around the clock. But when it came to an underperformer, they're like, Ah, I'm afraid that there's going to be, you know, a negative consequence. I'm afraid to disappoint them afraid. Right. And so I'm curious, can we go back a little bit on the topic of relationship building, right? Because I wonder for some women leaders, that, you know, the way we've been socialized to think about relationship and our and the role that we play in relationships, like to sort of carry the burden, so to speak. I think it holds us back from being maybe holds us back from seeing relationship building as an asset rather than a liability. Some in some instances. Does that not make sense?

Jennifer Nash, PhD  18:40  
Oh, I'm just I'm thinking about what you're asking. And I'm not sure when I'm clear on the question. So

Jamie Lee  18:45  
I guess I'm asking, like, what if prioritizing relationships holds women leaders back from being even more decisive, and even more authoritative, in their decision making? Or even like asking, you know, sometimes people, women hesitate to ask because like, what if? What if this harms This hurts the relationship? Yeah, and I'm curious, what are your thoughts about that?

Jennifer Nash, PhD  19:15  
Yeah. So in other words, if women are prioritizing relationships, is it hurting them or hindering them? In other areas? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a very interesting question. Um, I have not approached it from that perspective yet. What I have seen is that, you know, organizations and women in particular that prioritize relationships, drive outstanding performance. So it's like that, that that human part falls into place, and then everything else is in alignment, right? Look at it. Go look at Zappos. Look at Ford when Alan was there, right. He had stock increases of 1837 sent during years of tenure there, and because he was able to get people rallied around that vision and rallied around that mission, he wouldn't have been able to do that if he wasn't using human leadership or relational leadership. So I feel like sometimes as women, we may have a hesitancy to let someone go, that isn't working out, because we've built a relationship with them. And maybe because we feel like it'll damage that relationship if we let them go. I think maybe sometimes it can, right? I mean, people that are let go, they tend to take that personally, and, and there can be some Ill Will there. I also think at the same time, when you're letting someone go, it's important to help them understand precisely why they're being let go, not beating around the bush and not sugarcoat it, and make it about the data. You know, you don't make it about the person. It's not necessarily the person that may be not the fit. It might be their approach. It might be their skill set, it might be, you know, something that is more, not necessarily tangible, but more you can point to look at I hired you to do X. And after four weeks, I didn't see that you were able to produce x. And I haven't seen evidence that anything is going to change, right? So using more of a data driven approach to having to let someone go as opposed to look, I don't like you this isn't working out, I don't want you on my team anymore. That isn't helpful for them, because it doesn't help them move forward in advancing and developing and growing. And it's not helpful for you, because then you don't have a sense for Well, what did I really need in that position? Because I didn't articulate it to them? Does that mean that I won't articulate it to the next person?

Jamie Lee  21:56  
Got it? Yeah, I think that's really fun on what you're what I'm hearing is that you want to balance prioritizing humanity with logic.

Jennifer Nash, PhD  22:08  
Yes, exactly. Exactly. And as you know, like, you know, whenever there's conflict, right, as women, sometimes we tend to not want to address conflict, we maybe want to avoid it. And that doesn't help anyone, either. So, you know, being you know, what I have learned in my journey is, I'm much slower to hire someone and bring someone on now, but I'm very fast to fire if it isn't working out. And so at the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey, I was completely the opposite. Because I didn't, you know, I didn't want to hurt that person's feelings if it wasn't working out, or I didn't, you know, want to damage the relationship. But what I learned is that it's not about their, it's not about the person themselves, it's about what they did or did not bring to the table and demonstrating the evidence of that. And then having them also look at that, and provide their perspective on it. Because maybe they don't see themselves that way. And maybe that's the first time in their lives, that they're getting feedback like that.

Jamie Lee  23:10  
Yeah, and I can totally see how this framework, right balancing humanity with logic, right, using a strong fact based evidence based case, is also a great way to advocate and negotiate for the growth that you

Jennifer Nash, PhD  23:25  
want. Yes, exactly. Because then that position, you have, you know, that tangible, or that that data driven evidence that you can say, Look, I have delivered this and this and this, I did it in this in this in this timeframe, I did it this this under, you know, under budget, whatever the deliverable or whatever the accomplishment was. And that leads into a very strong case for how you're benefiting the organization, how you will be projected to deliver going forward and have that track record of being a high performer. So in that case, you're in a strong position to negotiate for what you're looking for, and what you want from the organization.

Jamie Lee  24:05  
Love it. Okay. So anything else? I've not asked you that you think the audience should know.

Jennifer Nash, PhD  24:17  
So I think, you know, one of the things that people often ask me about the book or about this topic of human leadership is, you know, they'll say something like, you know, Jennifer, I don't have a p&l or, you know, I don't have the title of leader, or I don't have, you know, all of these people reporting to me, you know, so does this really apply to me? And what I often tell them is yes, absolutely. Because at the at the macro level, these principles are all around helping someone live their best life, and be the best person that they can possibly be and want to be. So looking at that, from that perspective, I've had moms come to me and say, Hey, I'm not leader, but I would love to teach my child, you know how to how to lead, how to develop that leader within so that as they grow, they can be successful in life and in school and in relationships and in their careers. And so I've I've found that the book applies to a lot of different audiences, not just necessarily people that have the title of leader, or that have a epic p&l under them.

Jamie Lee  25:23  
Excellent, thank you. So what's one quality about you that makes you so human?

Jennifer Nash, PhD  25:34  
So one, call me quality about me that makes me human is that I do not have a very thick skin. I have been told throughout my life, oh, you need to toughen up, like you've just seen the great a tough skin, like, can't take all these things personally. And as you saw how I was built, I'm human, and I have a lot of feelings and emotions, and they run pretty deep. And so you know, things do hurt sometimes, you know, when you get certain feedback, or when people treat you in a certain way, or there's, you know, social media haters, whatever it could be. And so yeah, that's that's one thing that I don't usually share that, you know, people don't really know about me.

Jamie Lee  26:12  
I can totally relate this year, I found out I'm a highly sensitive person, which is a test created by Dr. Elaine Aaron, there's a whole book, there's a series of books that you can find out. And, yeah, I'm very sensitive to everything to noise to, you know, right lights to opinions. What make you weak, I think it makes you a lot more sensitive and also perceptive. For myself, yeah,

Jennifer Nash, PhD  26:45  
I actually think it is one of your superpowers in that way.

Jamie Lee  26:48  
Thank you. I'd like to think so too. Yeah, absolutely. I

Jennifer Nash, PhD  26:52  
think, you know, I, you're very observant, you know, you can tell, like, I feel like I'm being listened to. Right, I can see that. You know, we're on the camera. I know, your listeners won't see that. But, you know, I, there's there's, you know, we all bring these different abilities to the table. And it's what makes this beautiful tapestry, you know, when we all interact with one another. Yeah,

Jamie Lee  27:11  
you know, thing that I'm taking away about the book be human. Read. And he I'm sorry, can you tell me the title one more time.

Jennifer Nash, PhD  27:22  
It's be human leave human.

Jamie Lee  27:26  
V. Human lead human yeah. Great resource for leaders who want to become better coaches, or want to, like lead in a coach way. 100%.

Jennifer Nash, PhD  27:37  
And that is also an application of this book that if I had to retitle than it would have been, you know, coaching skills for leaders?

Jamie Lee  27:46  
Where can people go to learn more about the book and the work that you do? Yeah.

Jennifer Nash, PhD  27:52  
So people like to learn more about me in the book, they can go to my website. It's www and then Dr. Dr. Jennifer nash.com. And at the website, they also have a link to the book. There's a whole bunch of resources there. They can learn more about me and what I do. And then there's a contact form if you'd like to reach

Jamie Lee  28:12  
out. Great, thank you so much, Dr. Jennifer Nash. Thank

Jennifer Nash, PhD  28:17  
you so much for having me. It was a pleasure being here, Jamie.

Jamie Lee  28:21  
As an executive coach for women, I'm super passionate about helping smart women who hate office politics get promoted and better paid. I do this through my unique combination of number one, self directed neuroplasticity tools, backed by science. Number two negotiation strategies proven to work for women by academic research and number three intersectional feminist lens that honors women's lived experiences. To learn more about my one on one coaching series, and to book your free hour long consultation with me, come on over to Jamie Lee coach.com/apply. It's Jamie Lee coach.com/apply JamieLeeCoach.com/apply. Talk soon.