Jamie Lee
We have with us again one of my favorite guests Selena Rezvani. Selena is a recognized consultant speaker and author on leadership and self advocacy. Selena has personally inspired me to get into the work that I do today helping women become bolder, braver and better paid. Selena has been named by Forbes, the premier expert on standing up for yourself at work. And she's the author of The Wall Street Journal best selling book, quick confidence, which we're going to talk about today. And she's also written the award winning book pushback in the next generation of women leaders, which I've also read. And it's all about ways to make your voice heard and negotiate your needs at work. So Lina addresses 1000s of professionals each year places like the World Bank, Under Armour, Microsoft, PNG and many others and today she's a columnist for NBC News's Know your value and, and I want to give you a shout out and thank you for betraying me one of the, you know, your value articles they do. And she is based in Philadelphia, where she lives with her husband, Jeff, and 11 year old boy, girl twins. Welcome back, Selena.
Selena Rezvani
Oh, thank you, Jamie, I appreciate you and see you as such a go to in the world of women and leadership. So I'm really thrilled to be here getting to talk to you. Me
Jamie Lee
too. Today, we're here to talk about the book quick competence, which is really a must read for anyone who wants, you know, actionable tips on gaining quick competence. And I love the chapter where you talk about negotiation, your experience, one of your early experiences, negotiating, speaking of advocating for yourself, and I read it and I was like, Whoa, I had such a similar experience. So I wanted to, you know, I wanted to discuss that with you. I want to hear more from you about that. Just to give you my story. Like you I was also a daughter of single parents, single immigrant mother from South Korea, and she, she sat me down when I was 18 years old, and she told me, I don't really have money to send you to college. But but if you can manage to get scholarships, or if you managed to get financial aid, maybe I can chip in $2,000 a year. And so my mom started by negotiating directly with me. Yeah,
Selena Rezvani
that's right. Before she had you negotiate with others, right? Or go do factfinding. She negotiated with you? And did sounds like did some level setting? And how did that turn out for you, Jamie? Yes,
Jamie Lee
the level setting really helped me because then I knew, Okay, I have to go look for schools where financial aid is available. And so that really helped me narrow my search, really focus my search. And I ended up going to Smith College where they did give me scholarship, and I was able to, you know, have financial, but I want to hear your story. As you tell it in the book, maybe you can tell us a little bit more, you know, because you also had a similar experience where you you had to contend with the fact that you have a single mother. It's your story.
Selena Rezvani
Yes. And I'm so happy for you ended up at Smith, what a great, fantastic place. But yeah, you know, in my own life, I, like a lot of teenagers was very excited at the prospect of going to college. But my father, who was ailing from heart disease for many years, passed away very suddenly, in my teenage years. And it completely changed. You know, fast forward a few years to college, how that process looked, what we could afford, as a family, what my options were, and I remember getting so excited to be accepted to a school I really loved. And yet, like the financial aid wasn't a lot. My mom said, you know, I I'll swing it, I'll do what I can to scrape together the rest. And I went Jamie that first year and I loved it. I loved it. I was like, This is my place. This is where I belong. And I remember getting the package the financial aid package for a year or two. And lo and behold, it was much smaller dollars. And I just thought to myself in that moment, if anything is going to change the day correction of the situation, it's gotta be me. You know, my mom had never been to a four year of college, let alone, you know, stood up to a financial aid office or made some big appeal. And so I started typing up an appeal letter, and I asked them, please keep me here, you know, please consider increasing those dollars. You know, here's all the ways I want to make it worth it to you. Here are the things I'd like to do among, you know, with the student community, here are the 400 jobs, I'm willing to take, you know, cafeteria, admissions guide, whatever it takes back office. And, you know what, Jamie, to my shock, they changed those $8. And not just for year two, but for year three, and year four, so I could finish out my bachelor's degree. And they gave me all those jobs too. So I hope they got something good out of it. But in my wildest dreams, I never would have expected to go and make an ask like that, if I hadn't felt absolutely desperate. And one of the things I share with people that I train and coach is asking can change your life. You know, you can have the all the loved ones and wonderful mentors and sponsors at work, you know, rallying for you, cheering you on from the sidelines, nobody is going to ask on your behalf. You know, you really have to be your own vocal advocate. And boy did that lesson as a young woman, 17 years old, I learned that you know, really profoundly.
Jamie Lee
I love that story. That's very moving.
Selena Rezvani
And I need to know, I still have the letter, Jamie, I still have the typewritten letter, dear admissions office, you know, and I'll never get rid of it. Yeah,
Jamie Lee
I mean, like the power of you taking an action and making a request. Right. And that that's like a lesson that really landed with you. And it's obviously inspiring the work you do today. Yeah,
Selena Rezvani
and I think it's something you and I both have such a passion for is, sometimes we find ourselves in these dilemmas, how do you pull the other person a little bit into your dilemma, and yet also present some solutions and a way forward? And I know that something you've and I both get really excited about is architecting conversations like that, right?
Jamie Lee
Because that was the beautiful thing that you did, you were you weren't like, Ah, I need the I need the financial lead, or else that you're like, what I can do, here are solutions. Here's what I'm suggesting, I'm here to add value to the institution as well, right? This is gonna be a give, and take. It's not just a one way thing. I'm offering more value to the situation, which I think is brilliant. And obviously, it is the core of, you know, effective self advocacy negotiating in your career, and so much more.
Selena Rezvani
I think so. And I think it it doesn't vary too much. If you're asking for a raise, or a better job offer or a really juicy assignment at work. I think it's very similar. You know, again, if there's a dilemma, kind of smartly, pulling them into it, your counterpart, and bringing those solutions and a great way forward. So, yes, I know you and I could get, you know, probably spend days on that. Yes.
Jamie Lee
And what I love what you said is that you were feeling desperate. And yet you still took action. And recently I forget where I heard this, but sometimes, you know, you take courageous steps, not because you're choosing courage, but because you're feeling like your backs against the wall, and you don't really have a choice. And I'd imagine for 17 year old Selena, I wonder if that's how you were feeling like, I don't have a choice. This is what I got to do. So I'm going to do it. And yet, you know, to somebody that's like, Oh, she was competent.
Selena Rezvani
What do ya I think it was desperate because, you know, imagine a dream of yours being and feeling this close. You know, in my case, completing a degree, they're going to college there in the first place. This is NYU, just loving the place and the environment. To think that that could be kind of in the palm of your hand somehow and you're just about to lose it and Have It slipped out of your grip? felt desperate? Yeah, it did. And so I'm not sure it felt like a choice at the time, certainly not a strategic choice to make this appeal, but came out of a real, I think passion and protective place, you know that a self protection of, I can't lose this. Yeah, so maybe,
Jamie Lee
you know, some people think, Oh, if I'm not feeling 100%, comfortable and confident, and maybe it's not right, or maybe I'm going to do it wrong. But what I'm learning from this is, it's okay, if you take action from desperation, only because that desperation is a reflection of your dedication to your dream, and to the depth of your passion, how much you, you really believe in something, including yourself? Yeah,
Selena Rezvani
and I think almost better to assume in life, any step worth pursuing, you won't feel 100% Just assume you won't, you won't go yep, I hit all the boxes, and look at me, I am just a shoo in for this opportunity. It just doesn't happen not with the most successful people in the world. And I think that's an important mindset shift to make, I myself had this faulty idea of confidence that, you know, you arrive at some point at this destination where you stop having doubts, and I was so wrong about that, you know, so many people I've interviewed and spoken to, at the highest levels, talk about the fact that they still have that, that, that it's proof that they're pushing their edge, and they're learning something new, and they're kind of standing on the end of their comfort zone. So I think expecting it kind of courting it, at that discomfort is a much better plan than, you know, waiting till it's gone.
Jamie Lee
Thank you for saying that. And what I really appreciate about you, and the book is how vulnerable you are in showing us that this is really as a work of integrity for you, right? You, you really contend with your own insecurities or doubts, right? And you really share with us your own journey that you really put all of these, you know, great tech tactics and tools and action steps in practice for yourself. And so having said that, I'm curious, there's some people, some people I have coached, who are convinced that not everyone experiences doubt. You know, for example, if you were the only woman Baker at an investment bank, and all the guys, they just seem to be so full of confidence and, and just bravado. And they never seem to have that sort of self doubt. Right. Um, I'm just curious, what are your thoughts about that?
Selena Rezvani
I don't think that's true. I think there is a continuum of confidence. And I think most of us slide between the different parts of it in our lives. So if you think about it, on one end might be what a lot of people ask me about, which is kind of too much confidence, like arrogance, bravado. And that tends to repel other people. As we all know, you know, we've all probably been in the room with somebody like that, who may be turned us off, kind of has a way of deflating or belittling others, while proving you know, that they're best. That's on one side, all the way on the other side, though, is low confidence. And there, I think we're talking about everything from failing to speak up about an important issue. Not venturing our creative idea. Right, missed opportunities of all types, not going up and introducing ourselves to that person who has our dream job, who we really want to meet and connect with. And my feeling is that people tend to over index and over worry about coming off as arrogant and too much. And we tend to under worry about playing small. You know, and the fact that we really can miss a world of opportunity when we don't speak up when we have too high a bar on what we're willing to share with the world. So I think there's something wonderful of really magic middle place that all of us can strive for, that attracts not repels others. You know where you are conversing In your own value, but you're also very willing to put the spotlight on other people to give them votes of confidence to boost their confidence, give them credit, for example, you know, so I think I tend to think most people slide across that spectrum. And if you don't, if you stay in that arrogance zone, it's going to be noticed people are going to take notice of that and and judge you for it. So I think there's a happy place to strive for in the middle.
Jamie Lee
Yes. So what I'm hearing is that to strike that balance, you want to take note of where is your confidence grounded? Right, because what I'm hearing that you're saying is, arrogance is when you round your confidence, I'm better than someone else. So I have to put someone down in order for me to be seen as well. So that's arrogance. Whereas True Confidence, the balance is like, No, I don't need to put anyone else down. We can all rise up together, because I'm really grounded in my own accomplishment, right, without needing to put anyone else down. Did I miss anything? No,
Selena Rezvani
I think you're right. And I think so much of it comes from that healthy respect for your own strengths. Yeah. That, that it's not a question of, if you have them, it's what are they, and there's a willingness and confidence people to speak about their strengths. You know, without squirming or apologizing for it, you know, like an ownership of your strengths. Because really, you have to be the world's foremost expert in that you can't expect other people just know, oh, Jamie's brilliant at, you know, you, you have to know that better than anyone else.
Jamie Lee
Or, I think, knowing it, and also having a sense of connection. And sometimes it's so something you experience. at an emotional level, like an embodied level is sometimes it's like literally having written down, here are the compliments and the praise I've received from my co workers and my clients, and accolades and etc. It's like you can take stock of it, but also really embody it. So tell us more of tell us about the strategies that you recommend in the book because you have amazing number of strategies. In this book, what are some things that people can do quickly and simply to help them build self assuredness?
Selena Rezvani
So many things, it's like, where to start, but one of the ones I think is important is that we can miss I know I've missed it myself, is to notice the promises you make yourself. I've noticed that the most confident people tend to keep the promises they make to themselves, even the small, everyday tight promises, not just some big resolution. And I think there's something to that, you know, if you if you think about it, Jamie, it feels good to honor a promise that you make, you know, it feels good to say, Hey, Jamie, here's your $5 back, thank you for lending me that. Or here's the sweatshirt you lent me it's all washed and ready for you. It boosts our esteem to keep our word. And on the flip side of that, I would argue it hurts us, you know, it feels bad kind of the way we might view a flaky coworker, you know, who can't keep their word who, you know, can't deliver their part of the project on time, when we do that to ourselves when we make a promise and put a stake in the ground and then we don't follow up. So, again, what I've noticed is if a confident person says I'm gonna apply for that scholarship tomorrow, they do it. They follow through, right and and don't deny yourself that don't deny yourself that pleasure and that self trust and that confidence that comes from staying true to your word. I think it's really important to recognize that and it's okay if you need to make the promises you make to yourself smaller, or maybe make fewer promises. But you don't want to keep yourself in this cycle of all start eating healthy on Monday, you know, only to break it the second you get to Monday not good for your self esteem. So taking those seriously. Putting some protection around those commitments and promises is making them a little bit more untouchable in your schedule?
Jamie Lee
I have a question about that because I had gray. Right? Because really at the heart self confidence of trust is the relationship with yourself, how do you relate to yourself? How do you treat yourself? How do you keep your word to yourself. But, you know, we have high achieving women who are listening to this. And when you are a high achieving ambitious woman, we're so accustomed to having internalized all the shoulds, right, I should have done X, Y, and Z, I should run a mile this morning and night a bola that gift and published, you know, 1000 report and like me and everyone else happy, I'm exaggerating it, because for so many of us, we end up thinking, Oh, I should have done so much more. Or I should have done something different, or I shouldn't be somewhere else. And therefore I need to be putting all this pressure on myself. So I'm curious, how do you differentiate? Like, how do you differentiate between the internalized pressure those shoulds that don't lead to greater confidence? Because sometimes you're like, oh, I should check all these boxes. And then you're like, Okay, I'm gonna check all these boxes, I'm done. And then you're like, oh, I don't feel any better about myself. Right? Those two genuine process promises, that honors what you truly, really deeply want. Right? Even if it box convention, even if it's something that shots people around you, right? I didn't imagine there is a distinction. And I'm curious, how do you think, you know, I didn't make that distinction for yourself.
Selena Rezvani
I think that it's, it's a moving target that's constantly dynamic, and changing what you need from week to week to feed and care for yourself in a basic way. And notice I'm saying keeping promises to yourself, I'm not even talking about the yeses, and the promises we might make to bosses and co workers and family and things like that. But I think it takes an awareness of what you need, what's reasonable and doable for you. And then taking some protective care. Like I said, to put some fences around that goal to not just like, for example, I was working with a client recently, who says, you know, when it's busy, I don't work out. And yet working out, taking a morning walk is really important to me. I'm elevating, what's important to you what feels like a commitment and promise that you want to be unbreakable. Elevating that maybe above some of the other things, I think can be really important. But I think it takes constant calibrating to look at that and say, What do I need this week? what's realistic for me? Let me look carefully at the promises I make. You know, am I putting myself first?
Jamie Lee
Yeah, I mean, that totally resonates because even for me times, I feel overwhelmed. Like oh, I have like found the thing, the way to do it. And then I just pause. And I asked myself that question like, What do I want? Yeah, really? What? And then I take a moment to just pause and check in and like, Yeah, is this what I think I need? Or is this because I think I should be something different, right is like what genuinely aligns with my desires? Yeah, absolutely.
Selena Rezvani
I'm reprioritizing. What's important, what matters, all the while knowing in the back of your head, you have a certain amount of energy every day. And it's not renewable in a day, you know, it is what it is. And so you can become more strategic and I think kind of focused on where you're putting that energy. So you're not just kind of spending it and using it on any old thing or scrolling through Instagram, if that's not what's important to you, or spending that energy on a silly disagreement or bickering, but that you're really judicious about where you're putting your energy and I think managing those promises you keep to yourself really goes with that. Managing your energy carefully. All of which boosts your confidence.
Jamie Lee
Totally in to me that sounds like effective self leadership.
Selena Rezvani
Yeah, and it takes awareness right. And I find you have so many clients Jamie to who are women leaders, that one of the biggest enemies of Self Awareness is over busyness. Yeah, like you can't even tune in to yourself very well, when you are working at the ceiling of what's humanly possible for you. And, and that busyness, you know, endemic, that seems to be a lot of places makes it makes it really hard to compete with our ability to tune in and go. What do I need this week? How am I doing here? Yeah,
Jamie Lee
and we talked about this at the last episode, we did, which I will link to in the show notes, we talked about how, when you are a woman of color, when you are of marginalized identity, in whichever form that it takes, whether it's neuro divergence, or gender identity, and what have you, that it can feel, I have noticed for myself, like almost like, again, this internalized pressure of like, oh, I need to prove myself, I need to do so much more than the next person, right? I have so many clients, they tell me, if they have to settle for anything less than b plus work, they feel like they can lose it, right. And that could be sort of that tension that exists that desire to excel, the desire to exceed expectations, but also the desire to manage your energy manage your time. Yeah. And with that said, I mean, you know, is, is you are passionate about inclusive leadership. Tell me how you see confidence playing a role in creating a more equitable workplace so that the playing field can be more level.
Selena Rezvani
Yeah, you know, I think confidence is this wonderful thing, but it's not just about like, puffing yourself up and flexing your own muscles more, it's also something we can extend to other people. And so I'm talking about little actions, little micro validations of somebody around you a small vote of confidence, that to the receiver might be major, you know, maybe what you did is a small thing, or gesture or mention to them, it can really make a difference to that other person. And so talking about, for example, noticing when somebody is overlooked, or invisible, you know, maybe they're from the department that nobody seems to like, and so it's, you know, their comment is getting glossed over, or they're the most junior on the team, simply putting the spotlight back on them. You know, Laura, I'd really like to hear the rest of your idea. Right, being that person to validate them. I think another thing is defending some people from criticism, you know, being knowing that, that all of us can kind of be good PR for somebody or bad PR, we can just go along with what's being said about them. You might be the person to shield someone from some criticism by saying like, wait a minute, let's hear this idea out. Before we rush to conclusion. That's a small act of validation, to give somebody a chance. I know, this is a huge one, somebody did this for me once. And it, it really changed how I saw myself as a young consultant for the better. And that was something we can do is defer to other people's abilities. You know,
Jamie Lee
what does that mean? Yeah, especially in
Selena Rezvani
a public forum. You know, saying something like, you know, Jamie, I could answer that, but I really trust you to run with it and make that choice on your own and manage the project, deferring back to them or maybe saying, you know, Jamie, you're the house expert here on XYZ, would you like to comment on this issue? So showing your trust in their knowledge, again, might be a small thing for you to do, but huge for the person who is on the other side. And of course, I think one thing we can all do that is a big confidence booster is to recognize people's contributions. And I really encourage people to do it in a specific way. So that it's something they can recreate and do again, based on your feedback. You know, it's not like good job in there.
Jamie Lee
Yeah, sorry. But what I love about what you're saying is it accomplishes two things so gracefully. Number one, we're just talking about how busy is endemic. It's like you learn how to delegate grace and style, right? And you end up, you know, lifting some of that weight some of that pressure off your Oakley but also number two, you end up building ally ship or modeling ally ship. And I have another podcast episode I've done with some experts who talked about how to navigate toxic workplaces. And ultimately it came down to do you have a friend? Do you have one ally in that workplace that you can turn to? And these small acts of what you call you call it deferring to other people's expertise? Yes. People up like modeling that sponsorship championship allyship, but it's going to help you build.
Selena Rezvani
You're so right, you're so right. In fact, people will never forget it is happened to me once Jamie with a male ally. And he did something that wasn't on our list that we talked about another thing to build someone's confidence, which is he kind of refused extra benefits that were being given to him and chose to share those like to divert the spotlight, we were getting ready to do an interview together. And this is a very celebrated male author. And it was pitched to us as a joint interview with the two of us authors pretty much shared. And that's not how the interview went. In real life. He was getting the majority of the questions and the focus, and to see him manage that and redirect some of those questions to to refuse those undeserved benefits he was getting and say, you know, I'd actually really liked to hear Salinas point of view on this. Selena, you had a great take on this earlier. What do you think it meant everything. And again, it's something I will never forget. So anyone listening, you could be that for somebody, it just takes noticing that maybe somebody was diminished, maybe somebody is being treated, you know, in such a way that they feel uncomfortable speaking up, noticing those things is half the battle.
Jamie Lee
Yeah, I love that. So lastly, for listeners who are on the verge of grabbing a copy of this great book, and we highly recommend it. And actually, I'm going to be sharing copies of this book with the listeners, what's one message or takeaway you hope they take away from the book?
Selena Rezvani
Oh, it's so hard to break it down to one I have, like 80 Plus in the book. But it's don't overestimate what everyone else can do. And underestimate what you can do. You know, she's got the perfect background to be a VP, he's got the right education to go for the promotion. I on the other hand, not so much. Right. I think this takes a real belief that you can change the voice of that inner critic and inner editor that so many of us have, to more of a friendly coach type voice. You know, if you think of a great sports coach, you know, you think of somebody who is instructive and says, Hey, I see what you were trying to do there. That was a good thought. Try it this way next time. Right. They're encouraging, they're motivating. They're pointing out what you might have done wrong, but also what you might have done right. And, you know, believe that you can adopt that if you don't have that supportive inner dialogue, that that is something no matter what your starting point that you can develop, and will have a huge impact on your self confidence. Absolutely.
Jamie Lee
And this is something that you and I both coach on. And what we do know is that we can change our brains, we can rewire our brains, we can have ourselves feeling differently, and therefore taking you action, and also seeing our own potential in a different way. And it kind of brings me back to the first story that we were sharing. I was thinking about as you were sharing your takeaway, I was thinking about how you know that 17 year olds Selena 18 year old Jamie, you know, we could have thought, Oh, that's not possible for us. It's not possible for me to write a letter of appeal, right? It's not possible for me to figure this out and go to college, right on a budget, but we did. And so you
Selena Rezvani
come over for that, please. But you said something and I hope it's okay. To add this, one of the biggest changes in my own life to build more lasting, durable confidence was loosening this death grip I had on like, what if I fail? That has colored a lot of the opportunities and things I've pursued in my life? The scary kind of monster who is always in the background. Yeah, but you could fail. And boy, if I were to talk to a young version of myself and give her advice, I'd say yet, make a mess, fail, like, do the face plan. And, and I've gotten to a point now where I don't even use that word. It's more like instead of, Oh, I could fail. It's, I'm either going to win, or I'm going to learn. Those are the options. So if that's something anyone who's listening can relate to right size, your fear around failing it it's it's a lot less permanent and scary than we think it is. Yes,
Jamie Lee
thank you for that. That's really great. And I've also been thinking about how more intimate you can be with that feeling of oh, I'm not excelling I'm mediocre or how often you can embrace Hearing no, or even rejection you talk about the the rejections you got before getting this book, publishing the book, like the simple part of the process, and it makes that end result even more richer in the end. So I think that's a really great piece of advice. Thank you so much, Talia. Where can people go to learn more about your books and about the work you do?
Selena Rezvani
Yeah, you can go to my website, Selena rezvani.com. And my books, including quick confidence are sold anywhere books can be found Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and lots of indie publisher or bookstores. And you can also find me at my handle Selena Rezvani on Tik Tok, Instagram, LinkedIn where I make content on leadership five days a week. So say hello, join up. And let me know you were here on this wonderful podcast with Jamie.
Jamie Lee
Thank you so Ina,
Selena Rezvani
thank you
