Jamie Lee:
Welcome to negotiate your Career Growth. I'm Jamie Lee and I teach you how to blend the best of negotiation strategies with feminist coaching so you get promoted and better paid without burning bridges or burning out in the process. Let's get started.

Jamie Lee:
I'm so excited to have Grace Anniskett on the podcast. Grace Anniskett is a 10 year veteran of the SaaS based software implementation and change management. She's also a program manager and a consultant. And in these roles, Grace teaches her customers intelligent and intuitive design for every level of data reporting from time sheet entry person to C E O. I love that. It sounds very important, pertinent and relevant to just about everyone because we all work with data now. So Grace, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. You've come from a really unusual and unique background and um, I'm speaking both geographically as well as career-wise. So would you mind taking us to the very beginning, <laugh> and tell us where you are from?

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah, so I was born and raised in remote Alaska. It's actually in the southeast. It's a popular pace for people to show up out of nowhere from Alaska. It's very remote, not a high population. We had no basic amenities, so no running water, no electricity, uh, even the nearest neighbor or store was at least half an hour to an hour away. And that's really where my resilience for mental endurance began, especially for knowing what I'm capable of. And I share it because I think it's so important for women and women of color to know that even though most of us are starting out with no network, no real, um, contacts in the industry, I really came from nowhere. Like I didn't know anybody. I didn't know a computer, I had no professional network and I made my career a hundred percent all by myself, uh, as far as making a good network of people who advocated for me along the way.

Jamie Lee:
I love that it's possible for everyone. Yeah, yeah. And I can relate because I, I mean I, I come from Seoul, South Korea, but I can relate to the feeling of having no network, no rich uncle to you know, give you a trust fund or <laugh>. Yeah. Introduce you to some, some guy at a bank or a firm. Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about the resilience, because it sounds like this is what you gained and this is sort of like a source of your superpower.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah, yeah. So in the early parts of my career, there was a lot of tasks that people wanted somebody to do that actually helped teach you a lot of what nobody else knew. But the tasks were really mentally enduring, like a lot data entry and a lot of figure out how this thing works or why is this error message popping up. And I had so much grit and endurance from spending hours and hours in this remote cabin just fiddling around with uh, kerosene lantern for fun or <laugh> digging giant ditches just to play in that I had this amazing resilience to just kind of go at a task for a really long time and not be bothered by it. I didn't feel upset or like I wasn't making enough progress. I never worried about progress when I lived in Alaska because there was no real concept of what everybody else was doing around you. So that resilience helped me in my career because I was never looking at some what somebody else was doing next to me. I just did my work and kept going.

Jamie Lee:
That's so fascinating because you know, in modern society, like we are obsessed with progress and so many of us are burning out because we are so accustomed to comparing ourselves to other people and get desperate, oh, I'm not, I'm not making as much progress. Right. So what I'm hearing is if you just let go of the need to make progress, you're capable of enduring and and making a ton of progress <laugh> very paradoxically. Yeah.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah, most definitely. Yeah. The less you're worried about what somebody else is doing, cuz think of all the mental energy you spend worrying about what they're up to. You could have spent that finishing what you were working on or even doing more work than what you were working on or doing it better. But the second you start looking at what somebody else is up to now I'm spending all my energy on them.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And I think that's a really great takeaway, even like for within our careers and uh, even like negotiating and advocating for what we want, if we compare ourselves to what other people are doing, that that mental talk can really kind of cut into and erode your confidence. Something that I have seen people do. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. So tell us, how does your career start after college? You come from nowhere remote town in Alaska. I hope you have plumbing now.

Grace Anniskett:
Yes. Yep. I, I, I moved back to Alaska and I got a a nice normal house in a normal town with electricity and running water and heat. <laugh> amazing. Um, yeah, but my, so I went, I did go to college and it's funny because like I didn't go out to some amazing college. I went to the only college who would accept me cuz I had a very spotty, uh, education before that. And so it was the only college that would take me. They had this special program to make sure you could handle real college and it was so helpful and great and I, instead of seeing it as like a, oh this is what's wrong with me, I tried to see it as oh, I'm getting extra prepared. And so out of when I first got out of college, I just kind of started going after whatever I could find.
It was 2011. There was a pretty hardcore uh, lack of work going on out there. And I started perusing Craigslist for work because I was like, you know what? I bet nobody's planning Craigslist jobs. And back then nobody was now definitely <laugh>, everybody is, but oddly enough Microsoft had this third party company that they used to do field recruitment and they did it on Craigslist because they needed to find people in really rural areas and they needed to find people who could drive in long distances for work. So they put it on Craigslist to find those people in those towns. And so I replied and I just so happened to get the job, uh, I had to meet them at a random mall and pick a, just anything from a shop and sell it to them. That was my job interview. And so I picked this really weird, uh, life saving, um, like solar charging cell phone thing.

And I was like, here, you could buy this and this is why it will help you for survival. And part of that's because of the Alaska thing, but I just managed to show them the value and the product without even knowing anything about it. And they're like, you're totally qualified. So I did that job and I drove 90 miles a day every day to multiple Best Buys and Office Depots. And I just walked around and talked about Microsoft products and fixed displays, like really no job was beneath me. I would clean the aisle up where the Microsoft stuff was. So I was very out there and while I was out there I would talk to customers and I'd be like, Hey, what's going on with your Microsoft Office products? And this was during the big controversial introduction of their new menu where they got rid of the button and they introduced the pinned tiles.
And a lot of people yelled at me every day, <laugh>. So I would try to be really graceful about it and just, you know, let me help you figure this out better. And while I was doing it, this woman noticed what I was doing cause I was working with her husband who was looking at going to Mac because he hated the start menu button being gone so much. And I had convinced him to not only not go to Mac but to go to Microsoft and purchase this new weird subscription for Office 365 that had never been out there before. And she was like, if you can convince my husband to do this, we need you to come work at our company. We're a small startup company with a new tech product that nobody seems to be able to pick up and want to purchase or use. And that was my first real corporate software job. Nine to five working in an office.

Jamie Lee:
Wow. Just wow. <laugh>, what were you thinking when you were driving 90 miles every day back and forth and you know, taking in all the complaints about the missing start button. Like what I, I know we just talked about resilience, but I'm just fascinated and curious what was going in your mind that helped you just continue, keep on keeping on.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah, I think I was just so proud that not only did I make it through college, like oh my gosh, I actually left Alaska. I went to college, I got my degree. I am not drowning in debt cuz I got, I did, I made sure I got a good enough gpa, I got lots of um, scholarships and I actually got a job at this point in time where people were saying there was no jobs out there in the market and everyone's failing. I mean, I wasn't getting paid a lot, but I still had a job. And not only did I have a job, but technically I got to wear a cool Microsoft t-shirt to work. So it was almost like I was working at some big company, you know, even though I was just a little peon of thousands of peons, I had this overwhelming sense of pride.

Like this little girl who's brown and didn't even comprehend what a light switch was now just made it. And I get to wear a Microsoft shirt and drive around and show everybody how much I know. Uh, so I just felt a lot of pride and uh, gratefulness for being able to have that opportunity because if I wasn't out there driving around talking to people, even if they're complaining to me, nobody'd know I existed. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there was no idea of having a LinkedIn. So I was just been floating off like, Hey somebody come hire me. So it was nice to be able to be like a visual representation of what I'm capable of out there in the world.

Jamie Lee:
So. Good. Amazing. So once you got, uh, recruited into, so you said um, you got recruited into this company Yeah. To do what was it?

Grace Anniskett:
Consulting? Oh yeah. So I started off as just a support desk person. I would answer any and every phone call that came in and I got some pretty funny phone calls from people that like, sometimes it wasn't even about the software we sold, but I got so used to answering weird questions at Microsoft that was like, oh, I can help you with it anyways. And all of a sudden we had this amazing customer retention rate cuz they were like, the support desk is amazing, but the support desk was just Grace <laugh>. It was just me answering calls. And from 12 to 1 every day the support desk was down cuz I was eating lunch. So they realized like if she can get people to stay and not uh, cancel their subscription, what can she do as a consultant? And so they finally started letting me kind of shadow in despite how much I wasn't qualified. Uh, they let me shadow some implementations and I immediately loved it. I was like, this is so cool. We get to just hang out and talk to people about what they do all day and then configure a system to work for them and, and then they're happy. And I was like, this is so much better than answering problems. Like I'd love to do solutions. So I immediately was really good at that too. And I got to go on as a full-time consultant for them.

Jamie Lee:
And I don't say this lightly, I think you truly are extraordinary. Like you, you have a capacity to learn and and execute on things that I, like, I know I couldn't do that. <laugh>, I love what you achieve is something that is beyond, like you have gifts for doing that and I thank you. That's really extraordinary. So what made you decide to seek out executive coaching?

Grace Anniskett:
Uh, so at some point in time in my career I had decent advocates, both men and women. But whenever they were gone I immediately floundered around amongst all the toxic people who didn't believe in me. And I would just kind of let people make me think less of myself or be really insecure and I wanted to either, I didn't wanna keep leaving jobs to go find a manager who would advocate for me because I knew the power of staying at a job and gaining experience that nobody else had was much more important than finding a manager that advocates for you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I wanted to find kind of this really safe place to go have somebody advocate for me, even if it was just to me and not within my organization because I knew that I could execute whatever they told me to go do to advocate for myself and my organization. So I searched through tons of Google pages, uh, and types, all different types of stuff to try and find specific. I wanted a female coach who had come from a background that was diverse and also in the same general industry as me, like working in in computer technology type related things. Kind of like the the modern age rather than maybe not like an accountant or you know, it's one of those specialty groups. I want it to be a little bit more broad.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And I just wanna add for sure I do advocate to you about you. Absolutely. But I think at the end of the day, I hope you advocate for yourself. Yep. Right? Because you have built the capacity to validate and have your own back. Validate yourself and have your own back.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah. Well and that's what coaching really helped me see is that I could absolutely trust myself to have my own back and to be smart enough to explain to people why I just needed to trust that and to talk that through somebody. And that's what coaching has really helped me do is I can trust myself. Cuz I just had this really great conversation with somebody where they showed me rationally like, look at you, you're great and you're trustworthy and everything you're saying is totally normal and human. And so once I have even just that little tiny boost, I go out there and I do wild things cuz I feel safe and confident and trustworthy.

Jamie Lee:
They truly are wild. The things that you do <laugh>, I I hope we get to talk about them more because it's so inspiring, um, to see my clients do extraordinary wild things in the world. And some people might be listening to this, oh, so is coach somebody who just like cheerleads you? And there is an element of truth to that for sure. But as Grace mentioned, it's not just about like rah rah cheerleading. He is like, no rationally here's the evidence. Like we do this exercise where, um, psychologists call it disconfirm, we're confirming the limiting beliefs, the beliefs that you know, that you felt, um, uh, were influenced by other toxic people, people that didn't have your back. Right. Yeah. We like, let's let's turn that on its head, right? So we like we can unwind those thoughts and believe new things you want to believe about yourself. So tell us about the wild things you have achieved. Um, I I, I had to have grace on the podcast because the speed and the velocity with which you have achieved new results. Or again, I know I'm overusing the word but Okay. I'll use a different word except <laugh>. <laugh>.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah, yeah, I know I, so I currently use you for coaching and then in Alaska we have a small business development center and I have a free consultant there who helps me make sure I don't break any laws locally. Um, and between the two of you I seem to constantly, um, excel past your guys' expected timeline of what you're thinking I was going to do. And I'm like, oh, I already did it <laugh>. So, uh, the wild things I've done. So I've always had a very entrepreneurial mindset and I don't actually really understand why. I think, I think just in college when I realized that college is a business and that they are using our tuition to pay employees and to have a business be run, I suddenly realized everything is a business and you can start a business anywhere. And I've always muled around with a lot of ideas of what businesses to start and how to get it going.
And eventually I listened to enough podcasts about this kind of stuff and that's how I kind of started to follow you. I realized that I needed a coach to help me reach that threshold where I felt really scared and uncomfortable and not confident and I also didn't trust myself to be capable of it for whatever reason. You know, you've helped me with the thought work, you know, when weird thoughts and literally in just three one hour sessions with you, I went from being too scared to start a business to, I started my own business, I got my very first customer and I grew that customer to a 15 month contract and doubled my income at the first round of negotiation and then quadrupled my income by the second round of negotiation

Jamie Lee:
<laugh>, I'm making this gesture like mind is blown <laugh>. Yeah. Whoa. Okay, so while you were doing this, you had a full-time job. Yeah. You, no, you continue to have a

Grace Anniskett:
Full-time. I still have a full-time job. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, it's been amazing because coaching has helped me realize that I've always been able to add a lot of value to the business. Whether it's equal to eight hours or 20 hours, I can add value every single day and if I prioritize it in a balance of what the business needs and I'm fully aware of and I've communicated with the executives and then also my health and my safety, I can actually do both. I can have my full-time job grow my business and then eventually grow a business that's big enough that I have my own employees and don't need my full-time job anymore.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. So tell us about how you advocated for yourself in your full-time job. Could we talk about that too?

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah. Yeah. So that was one of the very first things I worked with you on is negotiating for a raise because I was doing so much work, I was adding tons of value to the business and I felt personally like why are they not just giving me a raise for this anyways? And from the coaching that we worked through, I realized like this isn't something that people just give you because hey, you're doing a great job. You have to ask for it. You really need to ask for your promotions and your raises. And it's not rude to do that. And it's not selfish to do that. That's how the business world works. You have a job and you request promotions and then you get promotions. Um, and I knew that that process was going to be stressful for me on a personal level and not because I had a bad boss or a mean boss. He's a very nice, wonderful man, but I've watched him work with people when they have an idea that he doesn't agree with. He is so fast and so quick-witted that it was terrifying to go up against this person who has immediate pushback always in his back pocket. And I worked with you and now we figured out, okay, if I get ready for that pushback, I can either prepare pushback to the pushback or I can build a case to make sure that it's, there is no pushback. We don't even have that. So

Jamie Lee:
I'm gonna pause you right here. I'm gonna pause you right here because so important distinction to make. I know I teach the how to respond to pushback method and you've probably seen it in my other trainings mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But what Grace is about to tell you I didn't teach her <laugh> and I think this is so beautiful. This is so beautiful because it really goes to show what your own creativity, what your own, um, genius Yeah. Is capable of doing when it's no longer blocked by this limiting belief.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah, exact. Well, and the reason I was even able to see past the, my limiting belief is cuz as I was working with you on what the pushback could be, I was getting all prepared on my downtime and the light bulb just kind of went on like, yeah, what if I work on the pushback before it happens? And so this is the thing that, uh, Jamie didn't teach me. I came up with this idea, but I was just, even just to be able to come back and tell her what I did was so exciting. I felt like, you know, coming home with your favorite drawing from school, like mom put this on the fridge, um, <laugh>. So what I ended up doing is I went to him on our standard one-on-one that we always had and I was like, Hey, next one-on-one I'm gonna ask you, I'm gonna give you an exact job title that I want. I want a promotion and I'm gonna give you the exact raise that I want. But before that I want you to go talk to our C F O and find out what's approved in the budget for a raise for my headcount. And he was like, okay, cuz I gave him a to do, he didn't ask why. It was very obvious there was, I had received no pushback because I gave him a task to do rather than a decision to make.

Jamie Lee:
Beautiful. So beautiful. Uh, two things that I wanna highlight here. Number one, before Grace did this, what we did in the coaching was we just, we just got really clear on the value you were bringing, right? It's a little bit of a dis confirmation, like we totally disconfirm that you didn't deserve one, but like it's, it's, um, we, we interrupted the pattern of settling for less as you called it Grace. Yeah. And then we just got really specific on what that value is to the dollar figure because Grace is somebody who works with clients and you could track the impact of that on the company revenue. So that's what we did. And once Grace got really clear on her value prop and the value that she was bringing, that's when her light bulb went off. And then she did this beautiful thing, which um, in negotiation we call anchoring.
Anchoring is just a term meaning you tell them what you want. Very specifically Grace decided the title, the raise, she was decisive, she liked it and she just conveyed this decision to the c e o as if she wore another c e o. Yeah, I mean now you literally are the c e o of your own consulting company, but I love that you did that because it's signaling to the C E O, Hey, I'm, I'm a person who takes, who takes charge of my career. I see myself as the person in charge of my career decisions. And then she gave them a task, not a decision to make because she knew that this would help address that pushback ahead of time. That was the genius move. So tell us what happened.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah, so after that he immediately went, did exactly what I asked him to do. He found out the budget requirements, we came back to the next one-on-one and he had already approved my promotion to happen before payroll went out. So I already, it was approved. I had no idea. We got into the meeting, he was like, yep, everything's approved and here's a few little adjustments to what I would make to the responsibilities. He actually gave me less responsibilities than I had requested because he said that the value add is so high if I really centralized my focus on their top three. And so it was really easy. I mean I almost felt like it wasn't happening because there was so little discussion. It was just like, yep, you're here's your promotion, here's your raise, you're doing a great job. And the one comment I got from him was that he always knows what to expect with me because my communication is so clear and I always explain my intention before just jumping in and, and trying to kind of argue my way out of it.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And then you also set yourself up for future growth in that?

Grace Anniskett:
Yep. Yeah. Well and and at the end of it I told him like I don't just want this promotion <laugh>, I want the next promotion and next one and ultimately I'd like to become our C I O. And his very first reaction was to actually ask me why I didn't wanna be the C O O because he thinks I'm very suited for that. And I was like, you know what, any C-suite is good for me. <laugh>.

Jamie Lee:
<laugh>. That's awesome. That's really awesome. And I think you also set yourself up for more salary or income growth as well.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah, so I got my initial raise. So I ultimately requested a tiered raise, uh, of 10% after each one of, so the 10% right away, another 10% after I hit a certain portion of my goals. And then another 10% at the end of the goals that were listed. So altogether a 30% race.

Jamie Lee:
So it's like a raise with a very specific and timeline plan.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah.

Jamie Lee:
Gorgeous. Like I didn't teach her that <laugh> <laugh>, no, I'll now I won't teach people <laugh>. Thank you Grace.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah. Well and that was the other part of wanting to be coached. I knew I had potential and I knew that I could help become kind of this idea of what other people's potential could be. And then if you are able to keep teaching people these tips and tricks that I kind of advocate for myself through the thought work you help me with, then ultimately like I'm helping other people become the next C O O by making sure that the coach I go to is able to also learn these things that, how to get somebody there.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah. Yeah. Well thank you for being so generous with your wisdom and insight cuz I'm sure people who are listening to this like Oh wow, that's a great idea. I hadn't thought about offering a specific timeline and actually tasking the decision maker to do research ahead of time. Like addressing that pushback ahead of time. Yeah, for sure. People will find this useful. And um, something that I wanna say is for sure, like when you read negotiation advice out there online, they're like very specific to-dos and not to-dos. And I know that for me, when I was working as operations manager in tech startups, I thought I had to do things like very specific to the T and then unwittingly I would sort of limit my creativity in that way. But I love the example that you're showing. It's like instead of, you know, thinking oh I have to do it a certain way or else I failed, like allowing your brain to go to oh, what else could be possible? What else could I do? Right?

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah. How can you

Jamie Lee:
Sense,

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah, how can you rearrange the process? So I used all those same things to prepare my thoughts for how I wanted to articulate things, but I always chose to kind of take a, a step back and say, is this actually the process I wanna take to do this thing? Like is this the only way to do it or is there actually another way? And is really in that preparation realizing that there's a completely different path you can take and if you take it, the potential for you to throw that person off and shift their mindset and how they think about you is so high that now they're not gonna go down their standard path of nope, you can't do it because of this. Cuz they don't have anything to say to that yet. They haven't gone down the path yet.

Jamie Lee:
So good. Yes, I am taking notes right now. <laugh>, think about how can I rearrange the process. Like I've had another conversation with a client who also negotiated how the process is done, the how the promotion process is done. So good. So tell us about the moment you stopped realizing that um, you could stop settling for less because this was a theme that you and I discussed you and I coached on. And I'm curious what that moment was for you when you realized, oh, I can stop settling for less. In other words, what was the mindset shift that helped you create that ripple effect of other people's minds changing?

Grace Anniskett:
Well, I know that, um, so the coaching helped a lot, but if I were to think back to like the original part of my career where I realized that I even need a coach cuz I'm good at things and I deserve more. I had a female manager who was a really strong leader and she had advocated for me to be paid more because I was being paid so much less than everybody else and I had no idea and she didn't wanna tell me how much less, but instead she taught me how to put a dollar amount against my over performance. So when I would perform out at 120%, what did that actually mean in dollars? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it was my first time breaking into a six figure salary. And then when I started working on coaching with you, I started to realize like a lot of what she had said was kind of that foundation for coming back.
And rather than seeing that I am getting paid less or receiving less than I should, what is the, should define what the should is before you start to try and say, well it's just not enough. How much is it not enough of? And so a lot of what we work on is always talking about how do we actually put a value against that thing that I am doing that is so valuable to the company. Is it money? Is it days saved? Is it headcount saved? And then when I'm able to articulate that, I start to be able to fill the gap between, okay, this is how much I'm being paid or this is how many hours I'm working and this is how much less I'm going to work and how much more I wanna make.

Jamie Lee:
So good. Yes. Excellent. So, um, anything else that you wanna share that we haven't yet addressed?

Grace Anniskett:
Not that I can think of.

Jamie Lee:
Okay. Well one thing that I wanna add to what you just shared was, um, of course I I think the very logical way of thinking through your value is super helpful. And one thing that I teach my other clients who, whose work isn't directly correlated to client work, like whose work isn't directly correlated to like revenue is to think through what becomes possible because of your contribution and then think through the downstream effect of that. Did you put, are you in charge of the email marketing? Okay, what becomes possible clients understand the impact of our initiatives. Okay, then what becomes possible? Then they make better use of our initiative. Okay, what, because possible then we retain our customers. Okay, what, because possible then we have better profit margins. That is the possibility that is unlocked because I, you know, kept at, uh, consistently maintaining email marketing or even customer service, right? So it's kind of, uh, unnatural to think beyond exactly what you're doing now, but um, it's very helpful to think through what is the downstream effect that I can't see right now. Yeah. Because that, that is the true value of the work that you're doing. So before we wrap up, do you have any other advice to women, um, women of color, um, who are also struggling to trust themselves and to advocate for the growth that they want in their careers?

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah, I would just say like they, those women, like they've made it this far. They're, they have a resilience and self-advocacy to their current mindset that is even bringing them to listen to this amazing woman's podcast, Jamie, you're amazing. Um, and you can do this like all of you, all of you women, women of color, you can a hundred percent do this. And not only that, but you've already done it. You just maybe don't believe in yourself and no one at this point is going to stop you from doing things they might get in your way. They might make you have to pivot, but nothing will actually stop you except your own mindset and whether or not you're capable of making it past it. So whether it's listening to these podcasts and kind of working on your own thought work or signing up for coaching, just continue to believe in yourself.

Jamie Lee:
So Grace, uh, you had another thought to share, so let us know what that was.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah, so I've been thinking a lot about when I watch your coaching, which I love, uh, when you work with women who have quite a few questions around when they're not directly revenue generating resources, which I totally get, that's a huge portion of the business. So there's a lot of you that need to be able to quantify your value add to the business that maybe isn't necessarily, oh, we want more customers or we want more money. And I thought about this because we recently had somebody leave the company and I had no idea how expensive it was when people left and when people were onboarded until I was hanging out with our C F O and they told me. So if able to prove that the value you're bringing to the company creates a collaborative enough environment or um, just such a wonderful professional space for your teammates that your employee turnover goes down as long as you've been working with your employees or your team members even maybe you don't even have any direct reports, but if you can prove that employee turnover stays low because of the value you bring to the business, you're actually saving them potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

Jamie Lee:
Yeah, that's such a great point. And I'd imagine, um, in companies where they're letting some people go, like restructuring, you know, reorganizing the uh, company, um, there's also argument to be made for people who can take on additional responsibilities. Yeah. Right. Take, you know, fill the gaps that happen. I think that too, you know, just the inverse of what you said could be mm-hmm. <affirmative> of, of tremendous value. Cause I do know people who ended up negotiating their salaries when there were layoffs or restructuring at their company and they doubled their salary because they were able to demonstrate that I'm adding more value in this capacity. So, great point. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah, they could even so say there's been a hugely off, there's some role that they're able to temporarily fill some, you know, executive marketing guy job. Um, you could even go and Google how much it would be to get a contractor in to temporarily do that work for a couple of hours, even if it's say 15 extra hours a month, how much would the company have to pay that person? Because not only are they going to have to take on the liability of having a non-direct employee working for their business that could expose 'em to being sued by customers, but now they have, the person has no tribal knowledge of your organization. So you could easily take that and request that as being some level of a promotion for yourself.

Jamie Lee:
I love it. We're masterminding right now. <laugh>. So fun. Thank you, grace.

Grace Anniskett:
Yeah.

Jamie Lee:
If you enjoy this podcast, come to jamie lee coach.com, j a m i e l e e c o a c h.com to get your free ebook. How to ask for a big pay raise and get it. And if you want expert guidance in your corner to help you achieve greater self-confidence and greater career satisfaction as you grow your skills in negotiating, leading and influencing as a woman professional, I invite you to book your free one-on-one sales call with me to find out how executive coaching can help you do exactly that. The link is in the show notes talk soon.