Jamie Lee  

Welcome to negotiate your career growth. I'm Jamie Lee and I teach you how to blend the best of negotiation strategies with feminist coaching. So you get promoted and better paid without burning bridges or burning out in the process. Let's get started. I'm so excited to have Selena Rezvani and Selena you are you personally inspired me to go into the work that I do now helping women become better self advocates helping them better negotiate in their careers? So it's, it's really personally meaningful for me to have you here at negotiate your career growth podcast. Welcome.

Selena Rezvani  

Thank you so much, Jamie. I think the world of you and I'm just fan girling you so much and honored to be here.

Jamie Lee  

So for those of you who are not familiar, Selena is a recognized consultant, speaker, author on leadership and self advocacy. She's been named by Forbes, the premier expert on standing up for yourself at work. We're so happy to have you here. She's the author of The Wall Street Journal best selling book, quick confidence. She also wrote the award winning book, pushback and the next generation of women leaders all about ways to make your voice heard and negotiate your needs at work. Perfect place to be here. She addresses 1000s of professionals each year at places like the World Bank Under Armour, Microsoft, Procter and Gamble and many others and today she's a columnist for NBC News's Know your value. She's also based in Philadelphia, she lives with her husband, Jeff, and 11 year old boy girl twins who are adorable.

Selena Rezvani  

Thank you, they have one foot in, you know, tween years and little kid years, and I'm just holding on tight.

Jamie Lee  

So let's just dive right into the topic of self advocacy. You did this fabulous TEDx talk in 2018. And one of the things that really stuck out for me it was you addressed how we can have healthy tension. And this really stuck out for me, because as somebody who was raised in an Asian American household as an immigrant, or was, you know, raised in patriarchy, like I was taught to avoid conflict, to avoid tension to keep my voice down not to seek out tension, or to even see it as healthy. So I'd love to hear more from you. Tell us about what healthy tension is how you define it, and how can smart ambitious women embrace it as part of their journeys to become better self advocates for themselves?

Selena Rezvani  

Yeah, I love Jamie, typical of you not to shy away from the hard stuff. get right into it. And yeah, I like you was raised that it was better to be part of harmony, and maybe even accommodating others, you know, in the name of harmony. No one came out and said you need to conform, but a little bit, that was the message. And so I look at this healthy tension in teams, especially teams, I coach and work with that it's this confident knowing this trust that discomfort, or even some temporary escalation in let's say a meeting is not breakdown. Right is not breakdown. That's not what it means. It really kind of requires this purposeful reframe away from, you know, easy is good in terms of team interactions and dynamics to, you know, what's good is stretching what we know. And that often requires a really good healthy volley, back and forth. Right. And this is supported by the idea that in diverse teams, we make better, more careful decisions when we have diverse team members. But there is a cost. It's harder, right? There's more work in a sense, from that experience, because we're debating, we're pushing back. We're saying I don't see it that way. I have a very different lived experience. I see it like this, or I have a different concern. And so again, I think we need to reframe quick and easy harmony. Agreement. These are all good things is actually we know we've had a good conversation when we've had a really healthy back and forth, even a passionate one.

Jamie Lee  

This reminds me of two things which is number one, that conflict within relationships within healthy relationships. It only makes those bonds stronger. Because we've, we've actually addressed the places where we don't fully agree, right. And when we are able to see all these different sides, we're actually able to embrace everyone else, more better, more openly. And so that actually strength strengthens relationships. And the second thing that you remind me of is something that I learned from Lisa gates, which is that when you advocate for yourself, when you speak up, and it kind of feels like you're making waves, and, you know, raising a different perspective, it's like going for your yoga Stretch, stretch, and that it's like it hurts, but it in a good way, you know, it's good.

Selena Rezvani  

You're right, and you asked to about, you know, specifically for women, you know, professionals who might be wanting to do more of this or adopt more of this mindset. And I'm, I'm all for it, particularly to de personalize a little bit. When you do get pushback or disagreement, you know, or someone says, Wait, Jamie, I have a lot of concerns with what you just said, I'm worried about that approach. I'm not sure I can get on board with what you're saying. Right? It's a real ability to be able to hear that and process it and not take it too, too, personally, to have a slightly thicker skin for that. And maybe even better. I think you'll agree with me, JB, but I want to hear your take on it, you know, to preempt to prepare for those objections. And that push back, you know, so you're not surprised by it, you're expecting it, you are ready with some responses for it.

Jamie Lee  

100% 100% Yes, something that I coach my clients on is we can't control other people. And we can't control their opinions. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, like everyone's entitled to have a butthole. Yeah, and sometimes they express those opinions as if they are buttholes. But

Selena Rezvani  

right, sometimes they're a little too good and acting the part right of one. But you know, it's something just on the personal front that taught me this not even within the workplace is just being married. To somebody who's a little bit more scientific minded, who is more of a natural debater, I realize as much as it used to frustrate me, you know, when I introduced a new idea, why do you need to stress test it so much? You know, why do you need to not shoot it down, but like, kind of really sum up the downsides and upsides. And I realized just in being married to a person like that, like, that's how some people's brains work. That is actually how they understand an idea is to debate it is to kind of take it apart, look at it from 10 different angles, somebody else might be more trusting, more accepting just a more open kind of person who likes entertaining, entertaining different ideas. But for some people, they feel like they're making their best contribution on a team by bringing a little healthy skepticism. So in that case, it's really not personal to you, you know,

Jamie Lee  

I 100% agree. So I'm curious for you, what has your experience been as a woman, also a woman of color when it comes to speaking up for yourself in the workplace, you know, dominated by folks who are unaware of either their unconscious biases, or maybe they're unaware of the impact that their particular type of communication styles has on other people, right? Like Take for example, if you're, I'll be honest, I tend to be rather agreeable for most times myself. But when it comes to things of principle, when it comes to things I really believe and I get like very firm, right, but like you describe when you are married to somebody who is scientifically minded and you understand that they have a more skeptical approach to things you're kind of get accustomed to that but when you're not accustomed to that right and in some people have an abrasive style and some to some people, this is a blind spots. It's sometimes it's men, but sometimes it's both women and men. And I'm curious what what is your experience been like for you in the workplace? And I'm curious how that informs the work that you do now. Yeah.

Selena Rezvani  

Well, thank you for asking, you know, I always felt like it didn't take a lot Jamie for people to underestimate me. I'll never Forget going into a large board room type of room. And you know, I got there a few minutes early before the presentation, and I'm kind of reviewing my papers, because I'm getting ready to give a presentation, one of the biggest ones in my career up to that date of a big study, we have done a first of its kind study. And a gentleman also came into the room a few minutes early before the meeting. Never forget him looking at me with this expected look, as he said, Miss the milk in my coffee, it's off. And, you know, when you're standing there, and you're summoning every grain of courage in your own self, to rise to the occasion to find your inner leader, you know, to be that poised person that you know, you know, you can be it's really difficult to be underestimated to have your stature, your title for people to automatically round down in terms of who or what you are, I cannot lie, I mean, that stung. And I know it does for plenty of other people, you know who faced that who, you know, you can't be an engineer, you can't be the lead lead on this project, whatever the statement is. Some of us, you know, can internalize that. And, you know, I'm five foot two, even physically, I've felt that way. You know, I've always felt like people looking at me, like, Are you sure you can manage that box? Do you need some help parallel parking? Meanwhile, I weight lift as a hobby, and I love cars and, and driving. So I definitely don't need the help. It's just, it's interesting. I don't think we would ever ask a man that. Do you need help parallel parking your car? I mean, so, again, I know, many others, you know, particularly from underrepresented groups have faced that kind of diminishing gaze, you know, you can't be that. And I think for me, it's, it's been even, it's added to my motivation to do something about it, you know, to work with team leaders and to work with women, who may have gotten some very mixed and sometimes contradictory messages about how to be you know, I think there's a lot of kind of confusing information out there from, you know, hey, mimic the guys, too. You know, all we have to do is wait for workplaces to change. You know, so I think it's been really empowering in my own career as a recovering good girl myself, to encourage women to speak up and to do it with in their voice, you know, on their terms, not mine. Yeah.

Jamie Lee  

Tell us a little bit more. So what happened? When that? Like, I'm curious, maybe you can tell us about, you know, how you responded in that situation? And, you know, for women who have been undressed? I mean, we've all been underestimated, right. And like you said, it stings, it hurts. But, you know, what I do know about you is that you're the expert of like comebacks, you're the expert of like, how do we push back on that? Right? So I want to hear a little bit more like if you have any suggestions for people who do experience those moments of slight like, how can they kind of stand up for themselves?

Selena Rezvani  

Yeah, well, I think it's kind of a two parter. I think there's some things you can do to tend to your own burn, you know, that you're feeling that are important. And then I think, you know, separate if that is how you might want to interact with that person. And so just in terms of yourself, what happened for me that day was it rattled me, I cannot lie. This was a put on your big girl pants moment for me, outside of that comment. So when I heard it, it definitely was like, Oh, is it that obvious? I don't belong here. You know, it kind of called on that imposter feeling and validated it. The second though, I started talking about this study, you know, and introducing it. And here's the I'm like, I ran this thing. I let it you know, if somebody was gonna give this talk, it should be me. And I think that affirmed me that reminder and something that we can do for ourselves, you know, I 400% belong in this interview, in this boardroom, in this you know, big deal event. On this panel, right? It's not a mistake, it's not an error. But really affirming your belonging, I think is so important. Another one, you know, sometimes I can raise the inner perfectionist in myself when I'm feeling really out of belonging and like, I'm uncomfortable. And so instead of being that perfectionist, you know, I better give this presentation perfectly to prove everybody wrong. You know, instead saying, like, look, if I make a misstep, I can write myself, I know how to do that, you know, I know how to kind of pivot if there is an issue. So for me, that was a way to affirm myself as well to relax, I belong, I can do this, you know? And so what is that for you? If you have a specific insecurity for anyone listening? Affirm that I'm a big fan of doing that above? You know, just general platitudes? You know, just things that may seem all purpose. So really think about your own insecurities. And then for comebacks? I love this question, Jamie. Because there's so many ways you can go with comebacks, you know, you can get curious. You know, you can say something like, um, you know, maybe not with the man in this scenario, but let's just say somebody says, What, are you getting married? You still don't have kids yet? You know, something like that. One of them is simply saying, I'm surprised you're comfortable asking somebody something like that.

Jamie Lee  

I like that. It's like, let's, let's get curious with the whole context of the situation will

Selena Rezvani  

context that's right, and it's like, notice what you're not doing, you know, was rushing to answer the question, and then feeling really crummy later about having done that, you know, maybe it crossed a boundary. And you didn't want to throw the ball back? No, in that moment, you don't have to answer any question you're asked. It's okay to make a comment about the question itself. You know, some people even do this in a cheeky way, they might be like, you go first. First, you got your family planning? And then maybe we'll see if I'm going to share with you. Um, I think there's other comebacks, we can say as well. You know, I think one thing we can do is kind of played dumb in the situation. I don't get it. You know, even getting a person to repeat it and say it a second time will often make them hear it. And either change what they say a second time, or apologize, or, you know, kind of rethink what's just happened. You know, so I think those are really effective comebacks, you know, mine in that moment with my example was, I don't work here. Excellent

Jamie Lee  

people. And I just imagined, when you were talking about how you reaffirmed, you reaffirmed your sense of belonging and confidence in the material in the work in your contribution. I just imagine that person's face just being utterly mortified. You about the milk that had gone bad, you know, they're like, Oh, God, this doesn't leave this room. Oh, shoot, what did I do? Right?

Selena Rezvani  

I know, I know, I wish I had zeroed in and seeing like, the full change of expression, that would have been satisfying.

Jamie Lee  

Yeah. So you know, when it comes to advocating for ourselves there is advocating for a pay raise for promotion, right. But there's also advocating for ourselves within the team dynamic. And sometimes people are pushy. And this is why I help women who hate office politics, because I have worked with pushy people, you know, oblivious people, people who are who think they're, well positive intending, but they're actually, you know, kind of unintentionally hurting people. And so, tell us a little bit more. I know you have a great article on your website about this very topic. You know, what if What if people it's your colleague, who is treating you as if your subordinate right it's like the situation you were talking about earlier, where you weren't their colleague but what if this is happening, you know where you are their peer, you know, you're supposed to be on par on that org chart, but you know, they they kind of treat you as if you're the person who's should be taking those you should be the one following their orders. I mean, this happens a lot for or women, women of color? It's be honest, right? Yeah, I'd love to hear your suggestions for that.

Selena Rezvani  

It does happen sometimes. And I think for all kinds of reasons from bias, I'm gonna round down in terms of what I think you're capable of, or I'm gonna round up in terms of my stature on the team, I'm going to give myself a boost. And you know, feel comfortable ordering you around telling you what to do, rather than take a collaborative approach. And so I think if this has happened to you, one thing that can be really empowering, that's helped some of my clients, and I talk about this in quick confidence, the book is to have some phrases ready, that you can change in make into your own voice. But to have some comebacks, when you're not comfortable with this, and some of them could be as simple as saying something like, you know, I can't, my manager wouldn't be happy with me. I'm 100% focused on X, you know, giving a reason and kind of invoking your managers name, and involvement, frankly, in your workload. I think that's an important one. Another one is just to kind of say, that's one way to divide up the work. I suggest we do it this way.

Jamie Lee  

Members of healthy healthy debate, yes, bringing healthy tension. Yes, that's, it's,

Selena Rezvani  

you know, you're not just there to be an order taker. You know, and this way you're volleying the ball back, maybe you're giving the group a chance to consider different ways of divvying up the work. I think that's important. I think there's also just the simple No, I'm gonna have to say no, that's not realistic with my current workload. And I think if none of those work, if this perpetual problem, I would think about getting some air cover from your boss,

Jamie Lee  

what does that mean getting air cover?

Selena Rezvani  

It's kind of like a shield. And what I mean is, I think your boss expects that you're able to attend to most of these situations yourself. But when you're getting pulled more frequently or even requested by others, I think it's a short meeting with your manager where you contract with them. And you say, Hey, I'm getting increasing requests to work on AIX, I want to just make sure with you, when it's over the line. It's not on the work we're doing or it's not focused on Project ABC, that I have your permission to decline those so long, it can go a long way to not only keep your manager informed, you know of what's going on. But give you that extra boost? Because often they'll say yes, yeah.

Jamie Lee  

Love it. Yeah. So it's about learning how to set boundaries, say no, because when you give an honest no, it's an honest yes to you. That's a Byron, Katie quote, but saying no, is really great self advocacy tool, and also managing up strategically so that you're aligned with your boss in terms of what you are willing and not willing to do.

Selena Rezvani  

I guess no, I think it's really it's and that I think Jamie is such a life skill, you know, not even a work, workplace and manager employees skill, but like a life skill that we need. Because oftentimes, what gets us what gets us about this particular pushy, peer or co worker, just like it might happen in our personal life with a neighbor or friend, is the element of surprise. Maybe we didn't see that coming and just out of nowhere, you assigned me tasks. And I think having some of these go twos helps for that reason, that you're never in a position where you have to say yes. Or you must kind of succumb to it.

Jamie Lee  

So since you work with teams, I'm also curious, like, what if it's like the inverse? So let's say you're managing a team, a team of people, and it's the direct report, who you know, pushy is not the right word, but you know, when you when you coach managers and team leads, how do you work with people who feel like they are getting brunt of the work, they're getting more and more of the work, you know, assigned to them because their direct report isn't pulling the weight or they have to handhold them and you know, it's like the it's almost like the the pole as opposed to the push, right if you're kind of pull to take on more is I think this is something that a lot of women managers struggle with. We feel the the pressure to sort of cover for other people and Right. And I'm curious, do you also suggest a similar approach? Or do you? Do you suggest something different?

Selena Rezvani  

They Yeah, that's a really interesting one. And I think there's different things to look at, you know, I think sometimes when a manager is over functioning, and maybe an employee's under functioning, it's a good moment of self reflection, because there could be different reasons for that, right? One reason is something people call reverse delegation, which is actually, you know, when the manager gives a project or thing, but kind of encroaches in it, you know, won't fully handed off and let go. And so instead of delegating it, you know, they end up very involved and never entrusting the person to use their own judgment. So I think one check is to just make sure that's not going on, you know, is this something where I've given the project to them, and yet I'm re involving myself, maybe unnecessarily? If that's not it, I think it's a really good time to look at and re contract with your employee, really leaning heavily on facts, and, you know, actions and behaviors, things that you can, you know, kind of demonstrate clearly versus innuendo, I think I believe this may be happening, you know, here's some of the facts. I've noticed, you know, three times that the reports been late in the last month, really starting with the facts, so you can re scope what this person is working on. I think, to me, it's a big red flag that the scope needs to be looked at of each person's role, and corrected and using facts, non judgmental observations, and giving them a chance to check in like, once you present the facts, I would really like to hear your read on this, because sometimes we assume it's this, but they might be saying, well, I was reading some of your signals seemed uncomfortable not being involved, or, you know, so I think it's important to not just lay the facts down and blame but to inquire to be curious. Oftentimes, there's something going on, we haven't seen completely.

Jamie Lee  

Yeah, and I love that you were you use the word read contract? Because when you contract, you set very specific definitions and what each word each clause each term, like, what does it mean that you're handling the project? You know, what is? What is the scope of the project? How do we define whether there it is done or in progress, right, all those things get defined and agreed upon? So I think that's a really great strategy. Thank you for that. So I'm curious. You know, you wrote the book on quick confidence. And I'm going to have you back to tell us more about it. I'm so looking forward to that. But you know, everything that we're talking about not having other people's, you know, unconscious biases, or pushy or subpar behavior, subpar performance, impact how we see ourselves, not making any of that personal like this takes confidence, right? And so what are some ways that we can cultivate lasting confidence, especially as women who want to become their best self advocate? I'd love to hear your ideas on that. Yeah.

Selena Rezvani  

Well, if especially if we want to become better self advocates, I think it's so important to continually. Are you ready for this? Ask for things? Yeah, that you could get a no answer. As scary as it is as vulnerable as it is asking for what you need, whether it's initiating social plans, because you're feeling a little lonely and isolated, or asking for a resource you need at work so you can do your job better. It affirms us, every time we do this, we don't settle for sub optimal. We ask for what we need, we give the other person a chance to cure our pain. We behave like an open communicator as well. Right, which is another life skill many of us are working towards, you know, doing more of. I think one thing I noticed in the most confident people is they keep the promises that they make to themselves. So good. Yes. You know, and I think that's important for lasting confidence, not just the fleeting You know, let me act confident. So I can do well in this job interview, but the lasting really healthy self respect when you look in the mirror. And and if you think about it, right, it makes sense. Because if you lend me $5 Jamie, you know, feels good to me when I give you that $5 back, and I make good on that promise. And on the flip side, researchers have actually found it feels bad to us in our brains when a promise is broken to us. And it's kind of no different, right? When we do that to ourselves, we say I'll do X all apply for the juicy job opportunity, or that exciting scholarship. And we don't, you know, and of course, there's, there's the wonderful Flipside when we do. So, I like to encourage people, it's a simple little thing. But like, in moments like that, where you find yourself overthinking, you know, maybe I'll get rejected for the scholarship, maybe I can't do the big promotion job, I think I can ask your body to do what your brain won't use, it's just assigning the task to your body, like legs, get up and walk over there. And, you know, hit send on the application, you know, or hands, type up the email to the person were intimidated to ask for a coffee and hit send. And, you know, there's something about that. I'm a big believer, though, and delivering on our promises. And if we're making overly lofty ones, changing them, you know, making them smaller, but following through, somebody's listening, and it's you when you're doing this. So what a great testament to follow through.

Jamie Lee  

I love that everything that you share is always like super practical, something that you can do something that you can say right, something that you can just act on it. And just to unpack it a little bit, you know, what I heard is like, first of all, you got to be like you said, you got to be willing to make as and I think being able to keep promises to yourself is like, you got to have the ability to ask yourself, what do I really want? Right? What is the promise I want to make to myself? And then like you said, being able to kind of systematically here's the step one is literally getting up off the sea? Or, yeah, filling out an application or just imagine that it could be different right, than the last time or the other time that you failed. And or here's another thing that I want to add a note what you said about, you know, making us is I always encourage my clients to not celebrate the outcome of the ask whether because that's not in your hands. Whether you may be ask, right.

Selena Rezvani  

The gumption to ask it's funny, one of the most common questions I get in talks about this is like, I faced a big no, what do you recommend next? And my first step is always pat yourself on the back, let's write affirm yourself that you did this, like, Yeah, this is, as as you've talked, so often the kind of the beginning of the conversation and guess what you initiated it, that wonderful volley that's gonna follow. That's where a lot of you know, the good stuff happens. But you did one of the most important things by starting it. And so I think there's something wonderful in affirming that you got yourself there. I often tell people don't tell yourself, no, before they do. Excellent.

Jamie Lee  

So good. So good. So is there anything else that I haven't yet asked that you want to make sure we do share with the audience in terms of women becoming better self advocates.

Selena Rezvani  

One thing that has made a big difference for me and my clients, and especially if you maybe grew up in a home, where you were taught to defer to authority, and that is really think about your mindset and your energy, walking into those self self advocacy moments, even if that person is your boss's boss. Be careful about putting them up on a pedestal. You know, there's an old saying, if you put somebody up on a pedestal, don't be surprised if they start to look down on you. And so I just want to encourage you if you've ever felt like that, to really make a point to approach it peer to peer. Yeah, you know, is something you and I have both heard it's you and I, versus the problem in front of us. That's right. You know, not you versus me. Or you way up here and little old me down here. Not at all. So come with that energy of I have a great business idea, not that energy of, may I please pretty, please ask you for permission.

Jamie Lee  

Mm hmm. That reminds me, I think Chris Voss wrote it in his book never split the difference. Like if they're talking to you, you have leverage, you have something they want, right. And even if you are the, you know, associate director and you're talking to the SVP, if they're talking to you, they want something from you, you have leverage in this conversation. And you know, senior executives also want to hear and they want to learn from people who aren't doing the work on the ground, so to speak, because it helps them do their jobs better. So that's right.

Selena Rezvani  

And also it feels good to give somebody something when they've made a really smart, cogent, clear case. Good to grant that, yes. You know, so you have to take the first step by letting them hear it, and standing, you know, standing up for that idea, being willing to back it, because they also can act a little bit like those scientists, executives are kind of taught to be a little skeptical of things, and to kick the tires immediately, to not be too trusting, right? So you have to expect that from higher ups. Totally.

Jamie Lee  

And I think you're highlighting something that's really important when you do make a request, like, make sure you do have an idea of vision, something of value, right? So that you can show up as the peer as a thought partner to whomever you are making that request is something. Yeah, it's

Selena Rezvani  

a really different energy. And I think many of us respond to that.

Jamie Lee  

Totally, totally. I think it really helps to build trust between people and also within teams.

Selena Rezvani  

Right, because you're also signaling, I have confidence in this idea. I have confidence in myself. I have confidence that you are spending this one hour meeting with me, well, good use of your energy and time right now. You know, so there's so many things that energy can convey, even quietly, that work in your favor versus the Oh, Hi, Jamie. I'm so sorry to take up your time today. I know you're really busy. Just was kind of wondering if there's any way we could talk about my compensation. If it could match my responsibilities, it's a different energy.

Jamie Lee  

Yeah. Yeah, spot on. Okay. So where can folks go to learn more about you and the work that you do? Sure. So

Selena Rezvani  

my website is a great place to start Selena rezvani.com. And you'll see some free goodies there for you and ways to work with me. But I also develop content and I put that out five days a week on Tik Tok, Instagram, LinkedIn. And so I met Selena Rezvani on all of those and you can look for quick confidence at Amazon anywhere books are sold. Amazing.

Jamie Lee  

Thank you so much for coming on. And I look forward to having that conversation about quick confidence because I know it's been rereleased very soon in first quarter of 2024.

Selena Rezvani  

Yes, not quite first quarter, but soon after. And I'm so excited. I'm so excited to rejoin you. And thank you, Jamie.

Jamie Lee  

Thank you. As an executive coach for women, I'm super passionate about helping smart women who hate office politics get promoted and better paid. I do this through my unique combination of number one self directed neuroplasticity tools backed by science. Number two negotiation strategies proven to work for women buy academic research in number three intersectional feminist lens that honors women's lived experiences. To learn more about my one on one coaching series and to book your free hour long consultation with me. Come on over to Jamie Lee coach.com/apply It's Jamie Lee coached.com/apply JAM i e l e c o ach.com/apply. Talk soon.