Jamie Lee  00:02
Jay, welcome to risky Conversations. I'm Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach. I'm a self advocacy coach for women. And why risky conversations? Because everything that's rewarding is on the other side of a risky conversation, I think. And I'm gonna take some risk and be totally like vulnerable and open and share that I'm medicated. I'm quite happy to be medicated. I have with us Shailene Gupta, who is author and journalist, and Shailene has written the book the cycle, which everyone who has a womb, everyone who has an experience of severe PMS, PME, PMDD, go get and read like right now. She's also the co author of The Power of trust. And I just want to say, the reason why I am medicated on fluoxetine is partly because I read Shelley's book, the cycle, and it shed light on something that is so intimate, so painful. So you know, under the radar, like it's it's endemic, and yet so little people, so many, so few people actually talk about it. And so I'm just so excited to have you here. Shailene, thank you so much for joining us on risky conversations.

Shalene Gupta  01:31
Thanks so much for having me, Jamie, and I'm so excited that you're trying, floxatine, yeah,

Jamie Lee  01:35
me too. Me too. And you know, just to give a bit of a background. I I'm in my 40s, and I do believe I'm in perimenopause. I'm taking supplements for not on hormones yet. But just the other day, I realized I was ovulating, which is sort of uncommon when you're in perimenopause, and then immediately pain hit, you know, like pain and the energy drained out of my body, and then I started feeling bad. I started feeling sad. And this had been a recurring theme. This had been happening many times, but I didn't know what it was until very recently, until I started Googling out of desperation, while I was lying on my side just a few weeks ago, and then I found your book and I read it in the I read it like in two days. I just absorbed it, and I just felt so less alone. I felt so understood. And I love how you, you know, I really take a feminist approach to my coaching, and I I love that you went there. You took those big risks to, you know, help us unpack, you know, the feminist struggle around having the discussion, just like letting it be known that this is a thing that can be treated so, you know, people are wondering, what is this? What are we talking about? So, Shailene, since you wrote the book, maybe, maybe you can tell us about PMDD, what it is,

Shalene Gupta  03:07
absolutely so when I was in my early 30s, I was diagnosed with PMDD, which is premenstrual dysphoric disorder. So that essentially means that you are getting, you know, severe mood swings, anxiety, depression, rage, you know, right before your period or during your period. And you know, when I say like, anxiety or depression, a lot of times, people means Oh, that means you're sad or, like, you're a little worried, you know, but the statistics are, a third of the people who have been diagnosed with PMDD have attempted suicide. About 70% have regular monthly suicidal ideation when they're going through a PMDD episode. It's an incredibly serious condition, and it's also overlooked. So a lot of people who have it don't know that they have it, and they think this is just normal life, and so they're just trying to hide this and struggle along alone.

Jamie Lee  04:09
Yeah, there's so much to unpack here, but you know, your book takes on huge risks. You grab my attention immediately the first chapter, the first sentence starts with you attempting self mutilation, right out of you know when you are in the depth of the PMDD episode. And so why take on such a big risk? Why tell us so much about how deeply painful you know how it causes so much relationship pain, and like, even it has suicide. Well, why go there? Why? Why is that risk worth taking?

Shalene Gupta  04:45
Yeah, yeah, I believe the line you're referring to as I opened my book saying I am carving stars into my leg with a butcher's knife, which, by the way, a bad choice of a tool. You know, get the right tool for the job. But, um, sorry, that was a terrible. Horrible joke. But, you know, I felt like it was really important again, to paint the picture we are living in a society that does not take women's pain seriously. It there's so many like, there are numerous studies, and we could be here all day if I walked through like, the ways in which it's not understood, and we also don't really understand mental health or take it as seriously. And I know that this applies to me too. You know, if someone says, you know, I'm, you know, I'm struggling a little bit. And I think the word that we choose often is struggle, and we use it so much that it's really hard to understand, what does that actually look like. And I felt like it was deeply important in order to help other people to explain what this actually looks like and paint that portrait. And I was incredibly terrified of doing this. These were not moments I was proud of. I still have some of these moments where, like, Okay, I published that. That's a great choice. Good job. Shaleen, but on the other hand, you know, I feel like I come from a place of privilege. I'm well resourced, and it took me until my early 30s to get a diagnosis, and I had been suffering the whole time, and I just kept thinking about, what if I'm in this position, what about the other people who have PMDD and who don't know about it, and I may have never have known like someone needs to talk about this and rip down the veil on the silence.

Jamie Lee  06:29
Thank you so much for going there, because you taking that risk made me feel like, Oh yeah, I'm not alone. Because I'm in my 40s. I feel I have had severe PMS recently, and I think it's exacerbated, exacerbated by the permanent menopause symptoms that I have. And it just kept happening with more frequency, where right before or even, like weeks before my period, I get very sad, very depressed, very demotivated, and I have a life coach certification. You know, it's my job to, like, cheer people on, to negotiate and navigate. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this means I'm a terrible coach. This means I'm a terrible person, right? And then that shame cycle actually just makes the whole process even more difficult to navigate. It wasn't until very recently I realized, oh, you know, maybe it's not that there's something wrong with me personally. Maybe it's something happening in my body that, you know, I hadn't realized, and you going to that. I mean, everyone should go get the book. It's such a great book, right? And in the book, you shared with us that it took you 10 years for diagnosis, right? And you talk about the complications of being, you know, a woman of color, somebody who's like, high achieving, somebody who's like, wants to be known for her intellect, right? And how that complicated getting to that diagnosis? Would you tell us a little bit more about that, because I'm sure there are people sure there are people who are listening to this and they're like, What?

Shalene Gupta  08:07
Yeah, so the first time I, you know, I tried to get a diagnosis, I was in my early 20s, and I suspected there was an issue, because my boyfriend at the time and I would have these horrible fights, and I could always predict them within one or two days, be like, Okay, it's right. It's gonna be right before my period comes. And you know, we really loved each other. We were we were thoughtful people. And every time we tried to have a discussion of like, okay, what are relationship issues we need to examine, what's our plan for the month? And every month, it would fall apart, and then within a week, everything would clear up. And it was just like, something doesn't seem right here. So I did try to get, try to seek, for seek help. And essentially what ended up happening was a combo of, you know, feeling really kind of dismissed by one clinician, and that she was chalking this all up to my period, and that this was deeply sexist. I mean, the irony was, it was about my period, but there were sort of other issues there, which I talk about in the book. And then the second is, she sent me off to a psychiatrist. And, you know, I think just because I was, I was articulate, I imagine being Asian American helped, and I am able to present myself calmly. She was just like, Okay, you clearly don't have an issue. This is, you know, situational, you're probably just going through a hard time in life. And I walked out feeling really comforted, but it turns out she was wrong. And at the end of the day, even though initially I was really resistant to the idea of a diagnosis, because it feels like something, something's wrong with you, um, we stigmatize diagnoses. What does it mean? Um, do. The pain of actually having to watch yourself fall apart and feel like it's completely beyond your your control, and then to carry that shame, because I think we conflate a lot of times control with more moral character and good decision making. And this goes back to like, if you look at Greek philosophy, you know they're philosophers who are literally like your ability to control your emotions is a mark of virtue. There's just this deep, okay, I'm a failure. I'm a really bad person. I have poor control. And then to actually learn, you know, there's a biological reason why every month I'm falling apart, and it's because my brain reacts differently to normal changes in hormones, and there are studies that show brain scans of people with PMDD versus people who don't have PMDD, and their differences. Suddenly, you know that shame becomes societies of why haven't we talked about this? Why aren't we getting people treatment? Why are we making people carry this pain and suffering by themselves and make it feel like they're bad people when they're not. They didn't choose this. They have no control. Yeah,

Jamie Lee  11:09
and you talk about how there is very little research, there is less funding all around women's reproductive health when it's not about giving birth, right? It's like menstruation, hell, postmenopausal health, even PMDD like is severely underfunded, and I know you've written about this elsewhere too. Why do you think that is

Shalene Gupta  11:37
sexism? I mean, yeah, even, like, I'm glad that we're having a dialog about this more. But you know, if you look, if you go back and look at historically, medicine has been dominated by men, and especially, I'm talking about Western medicine here, because I think that's mostly sort of what impacts America. And we're both in America right now, it's a lot of men, and I don't know how much space there was for taking women's health that seriously. And gosh, there was this doctor in the Renaissance who made a name for himself because he could predict when women's periods were coming based on their PMS symptoms of, like, oh yeah, they get cramping and like, and it was just like, that is the state of women's medication that he got famous on, on this, which I think sort of any woman could kind of tell you, yep, yep, I'm getting some symptoms. And like, I know my periods coming. Got that sense. Like, the more you delve into the history, the the more appalling it is. I recently just learned that, um, you know, procedures for for women are typically reimbursed at less the rate than procedures for men. So there's simply not as much money, and a woman are just not getting

Jamie Lee  12:55
as much care. And of course, all of that has a way of becoming internalized in our brains, right? Something that I talk to my clients a lot about how the impact of socialization, impact of what we see in our world, sort of sets up our expectations. So if it doesn't go, addressed, if it doesn't go talked about, if it doesn't get treated with the seriousness of other, you know, elements of the male body, it's like, then we sort of internalize this narrative that maybe it's not as important, maybe it's not real, right? Maybe I am crazy, right? And that's really like, that kind of feeds into the shame cycle, I think. But having said that, I I'm curious. You know you're a writer, you're a journalist, you're you know you're a high achieving person, and how have you managed this through your career? You know you talked about the impact of that on your romantic relationships. And I feel like, you know, if it impacts one relationship. It's like, it's sort of like, symbolic of how, how it's impacting other relationships that as well. And so I know you talk about it in the book, but tell us more, like, how, how did you manage that with your, those symptoms in your writing career?

Shalene Gupta  14:17
That's a really good question. And you know, frankly, my biggest concern writing this book was that people are going to take the book and be like, oh my goodness, women are less employable, and people with PMD, you know, aren't going to be as good employees or workers or achieve as much. And I had this heartbreaking conversation with a young woman in her 20s who is doing incredible things as a college student, raising awareness, like she has PMDD. She's an amazing student, and she also has, like this organization that's raising awareness for PMDD on a national level, like she's going to do amazing things. And yet her first question for me is like, was just like, am I going to be doomed to not achieve as much? And it's just like, Are you kidding? You are achieving? So much so, you know, first of all, interestingly, there was a survey, and I'm forgetting the exact numbers, but most people with PMDD did say that it had an impact on their romantic relationships. The majority said it was not as much, it was not a problem, or not as much of a problem as at work, and I think so. I think again, it depends on who you are, but I feel like there's a certain like I did not unders. I'm pretty conflict averse, and I didn't have that many conflicts with people in my life, and didn't necessarily realize that I had PMDD until I got into a really serious relationship, and my partner and I were clashing every month in a way that I had never experienced before. And there was something about the vulnerability of you know, being deeply in love with someone, but the relationship is not quite the right fit that really like when you add in the depression and the anxiety, it became too much. And then in terms of the work, I mean, so one PMDD, just PMD, there's PMDD. And then I also have, like, painful periods and cramps, and then I get really fatigued right before my period, I think because I had that rhythm for so long in my life, it just made me plan ahead. And most of the people I've talked to who have these kind of issues are like that. So I'm not a procrastinator. If I have energy. And during my follicular phase, for two weeks, I feel like I can do anything. I work ahead like, boom, boom, boom. I am working to the max. And in college, what I would do is, you know, I would get my assignments for the semester, and I'd start working like, two weeks ahead of time, three weeks, like I was in the library every night. So then when finals rolled around, and I couldn't necessarily predict is finals gonna be like, you know, during my period or not, I'd already spent the entire semester studying. I didn't need to cram. I mean, I did cram a little bit, but, like, if I got felled by my period, it was okay. And so I really relied on that, like, just, you know, planning ahead, always kind of expecting that, you know, at any point I may not have the same level of energy, so I need to take advantage of when I'm well. The other part is I truly love what I'm doing. I feel extremely honored to be doing that, to be writing. I fought really hard to do it, and so I think there's just a willingness I have to push myself. I remember I had I was supposed to moderate a talk in front of 700 people, and it was my first time in my adult life going on stage. I kind of wish there had been a baby step in between honestly and I remember being incredibly nervous beforehand, and more nervous than usual. There's sort of a nervousness that I get whenever I speak, and then there's sort of like a nervousness driven by the anxiety of PMDD, where it was like fear sweating through my hair, and it was just like, Oh my God. Like, why can't I get on top of this? Because usually, at some point I'm just like, You know what? You're just saying words in front of people, it's going to be okay, like, what's the worst that could happen? And in this case, none of my coping mechanisms were working. And when I look back on that time, it's pretty clear to me that I was going through a PMDD episode, and especially because as soon as they got off the stage, I got my period, and I just had this moment of really sitting with myself and realizing this was a very large event. I was the only woman of color under the age of 35 who was making it on stage. It was mostly white men, and I just kind of gave myself this talking to of like it doesn't matter how you feel. You don't have a choice here to not do it or to do it poorly, because you are also doing this for all the other women of color under the age of 35 who would like to be on stage. And that really helped me for and I don't I think it varies from person to person, what the coping mechanism is, but for me, in those rare occasions where I can't necessarily plan my life, or there's something that comes up, I try to make it about something bigger than myself.

Jamie Lee  19:36
Thank you for sharing that and so many follow up questions, but first, I think some people may not know what is a follicular phase versus luteal phase. And I think this is very important to highlight, because my biggest takeaway is something that I do share with my coaching clients, is if you do have reproductive you know, some of my clients get IVF treatments. Or they also have painful periods, and I advise them to start tracking their cycle so that they can plan ahead. They can look ahead for what is follicular, what is luteal phase. But would you mind giving us a quick explanation of what is follicular, what is luteal, and how it impacts that planning base 100%

Shalene Gupta  20:23
and I'm so glad that you asked that, because honestly, I feel like this should have been nailed, drilled into our heads in health class, instead of, you know, like the bananas and the condoms. But, um, no, it's not. So the menstrual cycle can be divided into two phases. Um, there's sort of you start on like day one of your period, and then from there until ovulation, is called the follicular phase, and most people tend to be more energetic during that time, have like, a clear mindset. And then once you ovulate, which is when you know the egg is released from the ovaries and travels down into your system, into your uterus, and is released and sort of then dissolves and the uterus starts shedding its lining. That's the luteal phase, and you get huge hormonal surges around that time. And for some people, that is correlated with the fatigue and the mood changes and the symptoms, and also the physical symptoms, that are known as, like, PMS,

Jamie Lee  21:26
right? I experiencing this very viscerally. I'm a highly sensitive person, which I learned recently is also a form of neurodivergence, and I I've been starting, I've started tracking my cycle, and I realized, Oh yeah, I'm feeling great. I feel like, so calm, competent, like I could do anything, like everything is easy. And then as soon as ovulation started, like, oh, there is this switch. And it happens, you know, again, this, like, I felt the pain, and then, like, just things started feeling not as easy, like a lot more difficult. And so I think your advice is really good. Like, let's plan ahead. We're smart, we're we plan ahead for so many different things. We often do it for other people. We can do it for ourselves. And in fact, I think this is a really unorthodox but important negotiation advice, like, if you can plan those conversations, those important conversations during your follicular phase, like right after you started leaving up to oblivation, I think if you are prone to PMDD, which I learned, by the way, in your book, that have more than half of women with autism have PMDD, and about half of those with ADHD have PMDD. I always feel like I have undiagnosed ADHD. So really great advice. But I'm just curious, like, Why do you think? What's your best guess as to why people who have autism or ADHD, some sort of neurodivergence, are more likely to have PMDD. Do you have any guesses about that?

Shalene Gupta  23:09
Oh, my goodness, that is totally a question for researchers. I'm actually really excited, because I started this newsletter, because I realized that after I published my book, research is still coming out about PMDD. So I sit down and I interview a researcher about their paper every month to just sort of get the latest and the freshest. And the next one I'm going to do is actually with someone who just wrote a paper on PMDD and ADHD. So I will definitely ask her that question. Where

Jamie Lee  23:36
can people go to sign up for your newsletter? Because I want to read that too. Oh, thank

Shalene Gupta  23:39
you. Just go to my website, www dot Chalene gupta.com, and there's a little link at the top that says, newsletter.

Jamie Lee  23:46
Awesome, awesome. I have another question, which is, tell us about treatment. Because the treatment that you, you you, you got and that you, you know, you shared in your book that the same treatment that I'm getting actually as of today, right? It was so surprising. So tell us about the treatment.

Shalene Gupta  24:13
Yeah. So you know, what strikes me as the tragedy of PMDD is that it's actually fairly easy to treat, and the treatment works for a lot of people. So first line treatments are either you take a dose of antidepressants SSRIs. And the surprising thing is, antidepressants actually work faster for PMDD than they do for anxiety or depression. So it might take about four weeks if you take Prozac for for it to kick in. If you have anxiety or depression, it takes 12 hours if you have PMDD, which is incredible, you can also just take it during your luteal phase. You don't have to take the whole month the second, first line treatment is birth control, and here's where you know your mileage varies. Um. Um, it kind of depends on who you are. And researchers haven't yet identified the different types of PMDD, but they suspect there are different types, because some people react really well to some birth controls, but not others. And that's kind of a bit of a roulette as to, you know, will work? Will it not? But if it does work, it can also get rid of some of some of those physical symptoms as well. Which antidepressants will not take

Jamie Lee  25:23
care of? Yeah, I've tried birth control to manage my perimenopause symptoms. It may give me lot of knowledge that started to stop. And so now I'm trying the SSRI, the fluoroxetine. And so far so good. So far not bad. So I you know, what's coming up for me right now is how our culture is steeped in sexism like prevents women from talking about this with each other, learning about it from an early age, and even being able to have conversations about it with their employers, like yesterday, I was out with my girlfriend, and she needed a sanitary pad because she's on her period, and I noticed myself almost like unconsciously trying to shield it so that people couldn't see it. And this, again, you cover this in your book. It's like, why are we even afraid to you know, have our period products be seen in public. It's like, almost like this, this culture of shame that we internalize, right? Um, and I guess, I guess, do I have a question here?

Shalene Gupta  26:37
Please find the question my thoughts.

Jamie Lee  26:43
I think, I think what you are doing is so important for that very reason, like we don't need to be ashamed. It's natural. It's understandable. We experience the shame because culture has taught it to us. But once we realize, Oh, that's not about me personally. That's about, you know, this invisible context in which we are navigating. This is more about the World and Me. I think it can give us a little bit of space to like, you know, be more compassionate with ourselves, and then from there, take the right action, whether that is getting treatment or planning ahead or or getting help? Yeah,

Shalene Gupta  27:24
totally, I you know, and I think you nailed it, like the shame is really hard. We are taught from such a young age by so many cues in our environment. You know that periods are gross, they're dirty. There was a study with like Taiwanese boys that I refer to in the book, where these sixth grade boys are essentially, you know, curious about periods, and they they ask, like teachers or like older siblings or the parents, like, what's going on. And essentially, they're told, You're disgusting for asking. That's so shameful. Like one of them said, like my older sister, like, hit me, and was like, You're pervert. So obviously, what's the take home message there? Never talk about this, right? And then, so when they grow up and eventually become doctors, policymakers, teachers, fathers, what is their take on periods going to be? And it's just going to be so ingrained. And go straight back to childhood of like we don't talk about this, and that's being done to all of us. It's not just these Taiwanese boys and the stuff. In the study. So you know, of course, it's really, really hard, but then as you start to, like, learn more about it, which becomes difficult. And I, I struggled with the decision to write this book, and then I struggled with the decision to talk to people that I was writing this book, because it's like, okay, here I am, like, getting tons of books from the library about periods and yay. People are going to think I'm gross. And I do think, you know, there's still a way in which, you know, I talk about my book, and some people like, Oh my God. But a lot of people are

Unknown Speaker  28:56
like, gross,

Shalene Gupta  28:59
but you realize the amount of suffering that's going on because of this shame, and suddenly it turns into rage. I was reading about people where, essentially, in developing countries, they're not building enough toilets in the schools, so girls who are coming, you know, coming of age, getting their periods, essentially stop going to school, because it's shameful if you're bleeding, but nobody thought to build them toilets. And so then they don't get proper educations, and they can't get jobs, and then they have less power and they can't sustain themselves. And I just wanted to scream, like, this is being done to them, like, what are you supposed to do? Like, how are you supposed to come out on top, and it's insidious, and it just turned into like this. Shame is holding us back. It is making us less powerful. It means that we can't get the jobs we want. It means we can't live the lives that we deserve to live. And that is wrong

Jamie Lee  29:53
about this. And this brings me to politics, but you were talking about that. What, what I remember is, most recently, there are politicians that are attacking the Democratic candidate. We're recording this in August. Is it okay if we have a quick chat about that? Because I'd love to get your take on it. You know, they're the Republicans are out of ammunition. They don't know how to criticize. So now they're calling Tim walls tampon Tim, as if that's something to be ridiculed, as if that's something to be ashamed. But I see that I'm like somebody posted on LinkedIn. Can you imagine if we did have menstruation products in all gender in all the bathrooms, and boys just felt comfortable. If a girl was needing a ministration product, you'd be like, Oh yeah, I could just get one from the bathroom here, here. Let me help you here. And I thought, you know, if that really happened in my lifetime, in my my teenage years, I would feel so supported, I would feel like relieved, I would I wouldn't feel as embarrassed and ashamed. That will completely change the whole paradigm, right? And so, yeah, I want to hear your thoughts about that. What did you think about that?

Shalene Gupta  31:10
You know, I love that it's bringing out, okay, so I don't love that we're shaming someone for doing something incredible, but I actually love that it's bringing out this discussion, it's presenting us with an opportunity to really take a look at like, what are we ashamed of here? And why is it wrong? Because I've heard so many people, as you said, say, like, but what is the problem? He provided tampons for everyone. Don't we meet that? And I think just having that message out there is actually really powerful. Because, you know, I think 10 years ago, maybe 15 or 20, I don't know that we would be having this conversation and saying it's empowering to call him tampon Tim, and because there's so much shame around words like tampon or pads or just the idea of them, to have them be associated with A man and a platform of power and doing good, I think, is a great thing, and we should be pushing that forward. And I love that conversation of, like, yeah, why? Why can't like boys go grab, like, tampons for any friend who needs one, or, you know, if, if you happen to be like, if you're using the the restroom and you need a tampon, and you use the men's restroom that you can have it there, because, you know, there's so many stories about people who need a tampon or a pad, and they send out, you know, their partner or their husband, and their partner, husband's like, I don't want to get that that's embarrassing. Or, like, what? What do they look like? Do you want the like, lemon flavor, the grape flavor? Is there a difference? And this should like. This should be basic. We live in a world where half the population is is female and and they will bleed. And so it should be on all of us to be somewhat educated about it.

Jamie Lee  32:57
And of course, we get to have this conversation because we have a woman leader who is running for the top office of this country. And so many of my clients, I only coach women. They they tell me it makes a huge difference when they're not the only woman, when there are other women who, with whom they can have conversations like this, with whom they can have conversations about motherhood, the challenges of integrating motherhood with work. So I feel like the change is afoot, but there's still so much, like you said, there's so much more unnecessary suffering out there, and I think the more we're willing to have this kind of risky conversation, right, I think we can bring about that change, even if it's not as fast as we would like. Change is up. But is there anything else you would add? Is there anything else that you would want to impart to ambitious women, ambitious women of color, ambitious women who have neurodivergence, who do experience premenstrual pain, like, is there anything else that you would want to share with them?

Shalene Gupta  34:03
You know, I just want to say, like, it is not your fault, and if you have pain like you do what you need to to make your life work. Like, we're women of color, we are strong, we're widely because we have to be so you keep doing you, and you keep being powerful and realize, like, the shame is not yours. I'm

Jamie Lee  34:28
receiving this deeply you have me like tearing up, tearing up right now. Thank you. Thank you. I'm taking that in. I'm taking really, taking that in, you know, as somebody who has the privilege of working for herself, working from her home office. You know, I get to go at my own pace, so I just feel so much compassion for other women who are out there who don't have as much privilege, or who have to work with other people, and they have to contend with their symptoms as they navigate their career. And I think the work you're doing is so important. I'm just. So deeply grateful. I genuinely think. I think you know reading your book is going to change my is changing my life. Thank you. Um, any anything else, any resource, any other resources that you want to share with our listeners

Shalene Gupta  35:16
before we wrap up? Yes, if you think you have PMDD or PME, which is premenstrual exacerbation, which is when you have an underlying disorder and your menstrual cycle makes those symptoms worse. You should check out iapmd.org, it's the International Association of premenstrual disorders. And they have a wealth of resources. It's incredible. They have an ebook where they list out, like the diagnosis, the treatments that exist. They have peer support groups. They give, like, monthly seminars with the latest research. They're just doing this incredible work. And they also have, you know, I think, a test where you can sort of figure out, like, do you potentially have PMDD if you're worried that you have it, and tips on what to do next?

Jamie Lee  35:57
Excellent. I will link to that in the show notes, as well as your website and the sub stack. Thank

Shalene Gupta  36:02
you so much, and thanks so much for having me, Jamie, good luck with the flocks team.