SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Risky Conversations. Why? Because everything that's worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. My name is Jamie. I'm your host. I'm a coach. I'm also a hypnotist, and I help smart people who don't like office politics improve their self-advocacy, negotiation, and leadership. In this episode, I am joined by Joyce Cal and Heidi Siebold. They are my former clients, and they're also co-founders and co-executive directors of the Digital Research Academy. So, in terms of taking risks, we talk about taking the risk of the entrepreneurship journey, which Joyce and Heidi are on and thriving on. And we also talk about the risk of betting on yourself. In their journey, they came to crossroads at which they had to decide whether to go in one direction or to bet on themselves. And that's when they engaged me as their coach. So in this episode, they talk about the impact of coaching and they also tell us about all the amazing things that Digital Research Academy does and stands for. They are really passionate about open science and they tell us why it's important for research quality as well as equity, and they share inspiring advice for other women in the STEM fields, the science, technology, engineering, and math fields, who are also thinking about or wanting to get into entrepreneurship. So the story that you're about to hear is about betting on yourself, taking that risk, finding the right partner, and using your expertise to create something meaningful. I know you're going to really enjoy this conversation, so let's dive right in. Hello, welcome to Risky Conversations, because everything that's worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. My name is Jamie Lee, and today I have Joyce Cow and Heidi Siebold, who are based in Europe. And they're my friends, but they're also my former clients. They're also co-founders and co-executive directors of the Digital Research Academy. And so before we get started, uh Heidi and Joyce, I'd love to, you know, hear directly from you what is Digital Research Academy? Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Yeah. Heidi can do this one. She's really good at it.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

The Digital Research Academy is a training and trainer network, and we do training for researchers. So we teach researchers in the topics open science, data literacy, and research software engineering. So all the digital but also social skills you need to improve the quality of your research.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

So when you say researchers, you're talking specifically about scientific researchers.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Yes. So academics, um, researchers who work in industry, everybody who do does research um in a yeah, in an evidence-based setting.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

That's excellent. Okay. So maybe I'll, since there are two of you here, um I'll take the next question to Joyce. So Joyce, maybe you can tell us more about what your professional journey was and how that journey led to both of you becoming co-founders of Digital Research Academy.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Uh yeah, sure. I think Heidi and I have similar, I guess, origins in our professional journey. So both of us um used to be scientific researchers. So we both went and did a PhD in a science, actually in data science, essentially. Different flavors of data science. Uh worked in an active research lab and then both kind of had the feeling that it could be done a little bit differently. Um and we left and we got really into open science and uh really liked interacting with people to help them do better research. And uh, I think what was it a couple years ago? Yeah, Heidi joined the advisory board of a nonprofit that I established in Switzerland, also about open science. And I think that's how we got to know each other. And then we started talking, and it turns out we had really nice complementary, I guess, interests. Uh, and um, yeah, we joined forces, and next thing we know, like we made the digital research academy happen.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Is that do you want to add anything, Heidi, to that? Yeah, no, I think it's a very good explanation. So we we had a similar journey, but for the longest time we didn't know each other, even though at some point we even lived in the same city, so in Zurich, but we didn't meet then. And yeah, once we met, we I I think we just kept in touch. And when the idea of the digital research academy came up, um, Joyce was really getting involved really fast. And then yeah, I asked her if she wanted to do this together with me because I didn't want to do it alone.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

I have so many questions. First of all, data science. And you know, some of my clients who are in data science who are in industry, that's a growing field, right? AI, data science, there is there is an overlap, there's some convergence there. So why not take your knowledge and try to go make a bunch of money as opposed to you know help to improve the field of open science? I'm really curious about that decision for both of you.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

It's a very good question, honestly. I guess, I guess for me, I just really so I I I've always been like really into research. And originally I just wanted to be an academic for the rest of my life and become a professor, maybe. Um so that was really for the longest time my goal. And then I just I couldn't take it anymore. I was like, uh, we have to change the way we do research. I don't want to do research myself anymore. I want to help other people to improve the way they do research. And obviously, I could have taken lots of different jobs where in industry or academia, wherever, where I could make a lot more money now than I do at the moment. Um, but I have just yeah, so much passion for this topic and this idea that it didn't even really come to my mind, honestly. Fascinating. Joyce, tell us more.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Yeah, so uh why didn't I go make gobs of money? Um well I think I mean I was also for the longest time uh I think aiming to be a professor at some point, but then I had some life-changing experiences. Um number one was I think the birth of my child, uh, which kind of reset some priorities in my life um about how I wanted to design my work life balance. Um and then number two, when I was living in Switzerland, I ended up getting really into the startup scene um there. I mean, Switzerland, I think, is one of the most innovative countries in the world, and they have tons of incubator programs for entrepreneurs. Um, so I went through a couple of those and just got like really realized that this is kind of my vibe to start new organizations, to start new companies and things like that. And so yeah, I mean, I tried getting a job in uh banking or finance and data science. And I mean, in the end, it just didn't vibe with me. So, what vibed with me more was to start new things and excite having, you know, doing things that people haven't done before. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Thank you for sharing that. So I hear that basically what you're doing now better aligns with who you are, what you really value, what you're passionate about, you know, open science, you know, every time I hear that, I think of like open book, you know, free exchange of information, um, sharing knowledge um for the betterment of a wider group of people, right? And so um maybe you can tell me a little bit about where in your entrepreneur journey you were and what made you decide to reach out. I mean, Joyce first reached out to me. Joyce is a personal friend, uh, full disclosure. And I'm just curious, you know, maybe you can tell us a little bit about what you were struggling with before you reached out to me for coaching. And we don't have to go into too much detail, but I'm just curious, you know, what that struggle felt like and why you thought it would be beneficial to work with a coach.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Yeah, sure. Um I think what it really basically boils down to is that I mean, at the beginning of every startup, you have to make really, really hard decisions uh about how you build the company, who you want to work with. And this is kind of what no, this was exactly what we were facing um when we were building the Digital Research Academy um earlier this year, uh, making big decisions about how we want to build the company. And that's when we reached out to you um because I think Heidi and I were at a yeah, we were we were at a a fork in the road deciding how to how to move forward. And we just couldn't make the decision or we we couldn't find clarity ourselves to like make a decision um on how to build the company in a certain way.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

And um I'm curious, was there any aspect of making that decision that felt particularly high risk? Maybe emotionally, mentally, if you had any thoughts about making that decision, you know, right? Because there was a fork in the road, it could go this way or that way. And I'm curious, like, what about that felt risky? Heidi, do you have any thoughts about that?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah, I do. Um, so I think the main part of the decision that was most scary to me was weighing our options and making the best decision for our training community, and also to think about like um who like yeah, how do I say this in the best way? How much agency do we need as an entity, and how much can we can we risk um in in maybe sharing that agency with someone? Oh yeah, I find it hard to to explain this without getting too much into detail.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Is it fair to say like it was a decision about whether or not you uh work with a much bigger entity or continue to go your own way and build this organization the way you believe you could together between you and Joyce? Is that fair enough to say? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that that's why it was like, wait, do we take matters into our own hands? Do we honor and value what's most important to us? Do we get even clearer on what we believe our strengths to be?

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yeah, but also how how do you make a decision that's this big that just is essentially do we join forces or do we not join forces with this bigger organization? And um, what impact would that have for like um because it was also a big opportunity for us, obviously, um, which is why we considered it. And in the end, um we made a decision, and we never will know whether the other way would have been good, but I think we're pretty happy with our decision at this moment. I'm glad to hear that.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Okay. So, you know, I I'm curious, maybe for either Joyce or Heidi, what was your experience like in the process of being supported in the coaching to make that decision? How did it feel? Yeah, what did you notice that was like for you?

SPEAKER_02 13:23

So maybe I can say something here um about how at least I viewed, I viewed it or what changed for me. And I think the biggest thing that came from the coaching was a per perspective shift. Right. So I think one thing that really helped um myself and also I think Heidi a lot is to shift the perspective of thinking about the Digital Research Academy as its own thing, as our baby, essentially, I think is how we we um we talked about it. And it kind of moved, I guess, the priorities from us to this new thing that we're building, this this new entity.

unknown 14:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Right. And so I think when we started thinking about in terms of decision making, we thought what is best for our brainchild, for lack of a better term. Um, then it became a little bit easier to handle, I guess, the decision-making process and making priorities and making decisions not based on our own personal emotions and and what's necessarily best for Heidi and Joyce, but also what's but then to shift it to what's best for the Digital Research Academy and our trainers. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe one thing that I could add for me was also this um shift from thinking about what do we have to offer um to others to also think about like what do we need in order to continue and to be most effective in what we do and to yeah, reach the goals that we have with the Digital Research Academy.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yeah, right. Thinking thinking about it from multiple perspectives. Yeah. Yeah. And uh touching on what Joy said, I recall we had this conversation about like if it is your brain child, what's what school would you want it to go, right? What environment would you want it to be in, right? Yeah, and in order for you to create that, what would you need, right? And how does that inform the decision that you make? Thank you. So um I hear that you are happy with the decision that you have made. And so maybe you can tell us a little bit more. What specifically are you happy about? What's going well for you within Digital Research Academy? What's going well for your brainchild? It's a teenager now. Oh, is it?

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Is it today? Today was a little bit um, yeah. We had a little bit of IT problems, so it felt like, yeah, the teenager is coming out. We're coming for puberty.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Getting puberty and acting help.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yeah, a little bit. We had an outbreak.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

No, but to be honest, what's really, really going well is that we do feel like this is moving forward really, really quickly, and we're um able to help so many more people than we thought, um, even in the first year. And there's so many requests coming in, so many opportunities. And Joyce and I honestly I feel like we're we're really happy, but at the same time, we're already a little bit struggling with keeping up because so many things are happening. So it's good and also very, very challenging.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Yeah, I hear there's a lot of demand for what you're doing then. Yeah. That's great. That's great. You know, one thing that we did do in the coaching container was uh we just engaged some mental rehearsal tools for you to think about, you know, what's ahead in the future. And um would you be open to sharing what your experience was like with some of those, you know, those are also evidence-based, neuroscience-based tools. And I'm I'm curious, Heidi or Joyce, what was your experience with those tools? Okay, there's this climate negotiation going on who's gonna go first. Yeah, and and just to jog your memory, it was just about imagining what the future would look like, imagining the future versions of yourselves. Um, and I I think we talked about okay, beyond this decision point, what would that be like? So yeah, either Heidi or Joyce, I'm curious, you know, if you have any thoughts to share about what that was like for you. That'd be great. Yeah, I can I can go. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Um so yeah, I'm I remember this so vividly how we like uh looked out the window um during the call. And or I looked out the window because you said you now move to your right and then look out the window and imagine what you what you feel like, what you're gonna look like when when you've succeeded. Um and yeah, I I remember that I would I thought that I was gonna feel really good and proud and um excited about the future and um that I would have a really cool outfit too, like a very strong woman kind of outfit.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

I definitely remember that part because now okay, no, not joking, but every time we have now a bigger, more important meeting. I'm always thinking, what am I gonna wear?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

And there's a good basis for this, right? Uh psychologists have um coined this term enclosed cognition. So they did this research, and if you put on a white lab coat, you're somehow more likely to do better than that because you've um primed your brain to think that, you know, yeah, I'm smart. And likewise, some of our clothes, especially as women, we have that uh freedom and the range of clothes that we can fashion that we can put on, right? And we can utilize that to help us um embody a different way of thinking about ourselves, even a different way of feeling within certain contexts. So, Joyce, what do you wear when you go to a big important meeting now?

SPEAKER_02 20:11

I wear things that make me feel good. I kind of think of it as like my well, I mean, we're not going into battle, but it just got a bit in a sense, it's kind of like a psychological battle armor. So I go in and I feel confident because I look good. Nice, great. I feel like that's very shallow to say, but I mean it works.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

I mean, I I wear a red lip color and it works like coffee for me. I just feel like more wake. Yeah. What's the what brand are you in the lipstick? Or something else? It's clean makeup, it's got some pimp in it. Maybe that's the magic. Cool. Okay, so um is there anything else that you would love to share about Digital Research Academy, you know, uh about the uh about the future direction you have for your organization. Joyce, would you like to share anything about what's coming ahead for Digital Research Academy?

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot, I think, since so um we're actually relatively new in terms of like being a legal entity. We uh founded officially, I think, mid-August is when we went to the notary and signed everything. Uh, and we just received our last piece of German bureaucracy check mark that we're done with the incorporation process. And and since then, like we've we've grown. Like business wise, community wise, like incredibly so. Um, and we have some really exciting projects coming up, um, which we'll officially announce next month, I think.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Um, yeah, but I can what I can say is we we actually won a sizable EU grant recently. Um, and we have some really exciting things coming up next year.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Uh about that.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Amazing. Heidi, anything else you would like to add?

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Yeah, maybe a couple of examples. Um, so one really cool project that we've uh been doing is called Open Science Retreat. This is a uh week-long event where people from the research community come together in a very nice venue. So this year we were in the Netherlands at the dunes. Um next year we're gonna be in the Swiss Alps at a mountain lake. So it's gonna be very, very pretty again. Um, during this week, we do like an on-conference style. Um, yeah, it's it's like an on-conference where people bring their own topics and work on those topics, but we also have uh a few workshops and then also time and space to go uh wander around nature, get to know each other, um, have some fun things as well. Um, this is one of the projects that I like the best that we do. But then, of course, we do lots of different trainings. So we've got a really cool open science training coming up next week with two other wonderful trainers for actually um people from the high performance community. So they also want to learn about open science. And um, we're doing research software engineering training series with health researchers. We're teaching people about reproducible research, so there's lots of really cool projects coming up. And uh yeah, I'm just really excited that there's so many opportunities and that we also have so many really, really cool trainers in our community that run these trainings because previously um I did a lot of the trainings myself, and now I'm moving a little bit also in roles, in the sense that yeah, we're try we're trying to yeah, build a business and work on the business, um, and not only work in the business in the future as well.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

That's great. That's great. I'm gonna say what I said when I first heard about your retreat. Can I go? Like it sounds so amazing. So amazing. The Swiss Alps and hanging out with smart people. And okay, maybe this is a question I should have asked earlier, but I'm gonna ask it now, anyways. Why should we care about open science? Why is it important for more researchers to learn about the methods of open science? Like, why should people who are not researchers care? Like, and why, yeah, tell us more. Maybe Joyce, would you like to start?

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Actually, I think Heidi can field this question very well. She's very well rehearsed because she gets asked this all the time.

unknown 25:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Maybe you can break it down to like what is it, and then tell us why it is important, but everything going on, you know, why are high performers, why are they caring more and more about open science?

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Yeah, there's a like open science is a pretty broad term, to be honest, and people have different kinds of definitions for it. The way I see open science um is that it is a way to improve the quality of research, but also the equity in research, in the research community and beyond. So the way what we do in open science is, for example, so there's different parts of it, like uh open access, where we want all people to have access to the research outputs, um, open data, where we talk about like how can we make data more accessible for everyone. Um also talking about like things like yeah, where where shouldn't data be open as well, of course. Then there's like things like yeah, equity and inclusion when we think about open science as well, where if, for example, researchers or non-researchers as well don't have access to research outputs, to data, to code, to yeah, the research environment, then they cannot participate. So it's so it's a participation question. But in the end, um I've my focus is a lot on the on the quality when it comes to open science, because I think open science is just good science in a digital age, right? Previously we didn't call it open science, but it was always the idea and the ideal of open sci uh of science that we build upon each other's work and then extend the boundary of knowledge even further. If we can't build upon each other's work, then to me it's not really science, then it's just um yeah, silos, I guess. And open science just makes this very explicit. The word open science just makes this very explicit, that we need to be open and share with each other in order to really do science and to have scientific progress.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

That's great. Thank you. So I hear that open science makes information, makes science, makes progress more accessible to people who may be marginalized, people who may not have you know fancy equipment or lots of money, or people of color, people who are um not as privileged. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 28:31

I do agree with that, and that's um that's definitely one part, but also not only that. I and I put only here in quotation marks, I guess, um, because that's already a really big step forward and a big thing, right? But also um other researchers can't usually access the research of others, right? So even within these research circles, people don't usually share their code. Um, but the code is needed to really understand what people did and the processes and the everything that's involved in this research project is usually not shared. And with that, people within the circle, even, can only read the paper, and the paper is maybe 10 pages long. And we all know that a research project is way too complicated to put in 10 pages.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Okay. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

I also wanted maybe add a little bit more to this. Um that uh open science is also, in my eyes, at least, a bit of um being efficient resources as well, right? So Heidi mentioned essentially scientific silos where people are working independently, right? So this is a model where you know, I do what I'm doing, I'm not gonna show what other people what show other people what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing, but they could be doing the same thing, right? So basically what you're looking at is um, well, first of all, all of this is publicly funded, right? Or most of scientific research is publicly funded in academic institutions. And so we're using public money to fund essentially maybe multiple versions of the same project, and maybe they're trying the same kinds of things. Now, with open science, you make it open so you see what other people are doing, see what other people have tried, right? So you don't have to do the same experience experiments um the same because you know, oh, they this other group tried it, they got this result. I can move on and do the next experiment and progress even faster um to the results, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Yeah, so we're also reducing waste essentially. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Reducing waste, increasing efficiency, increasing equity, accessibility, and thereby improving overall science. I love the summary. It's yours, you can have it. Awesome. So before we wrap up, where can people go to learn more about Digital Research Academy, about the trainings and the events that you're planning? Where can people go?

SPEAKER_02 31:29

So we have a website. Um it's well, it's Digital Research Academy. But uh we can maybe share the link with you. You can put it as part of the description of the podcast. Yes, it will be in the show notes. Absolutely. Great. Okay. Uh so that's one way to connect with us. We have a mailing list there that people can sign up for um to get to hear about the latest and greatest coming from us, including uh free trainings that our trainers offer regularly.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

Um yes. Uh, and also about the open science retreat that Heidi has mentioned. We exactly. And who knows where it's gonna be next year. I'm kind of hoping for like Belgium, Italy, I don't know. Aruba. We Aruba, maybe Aruba. We have a trainer out there. Um, other ways to connect with us are on social media. So right now we are on LinkedIn. Um, we're also on Mastodon. Um, we're on uh Twitter or X. Um, but we're actually going to be moving over to Blue Sky eventually. Uh so to find us there, we have the same handle name everywhere, DigiRes Academy. So just look us up on those platforms and um yeah, you should be able to connect with us there and find us and see what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

So before I let you go, I'd love to ask if you have any word of advice for women in STEM, in science, technology, engineering, engineering, math, people who are either researchers or who are simply in these male-dominated fields. And what you know your story exemplifies is betting on yourselves, right? The decision was do we bet on ourselves and do we grow this brainchild of ours, or do we you know go with some other bigger entity where we'd have to give up our agency, but you chose to you know retain your agency, bet on yourselves and grow your brainchild. And I hear that it is growing fast, right? So if you have any word of word of advice, or maybe like you know, one last thing that you want to share with any other woman who is listening to this, or groups of women who who who are also entrepreneurial, who also want to bet on themselves, right? And they encounter all of the socialization and the emotions, you know, that like, oh, but what if it doesn't work out, right? So if you have any word of advice for them, I'd love to hear from both of you.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Yeah, should I go? Yes, please. Please go. Um, so I would say I think uh two things is one try. Um, so we just tried, and if it hadn't worked out, or I mean it can always still fail in the future, then we can always get like a job somewhere, a mediocre job is always something that we can find, I think. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Like I know exactly what you mean. I know exactly you're like the worst case scenario is that you just you just go get a job.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Yeah, exactly. Now we can follow the thing that we really, really want to do that fails. We can always do something else. Um, and we're not gonna be destroyed by it, I don't think. Um, I hope so. And uh and the second thing is um I advise everyone to find a Joyce.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Ah, that was gonna be my thing. I mean, if it was gonna be like find a Heidi.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

I love that. Yeah. So we're such an amazing team, and Joyce is um so different in many ways. Um, so we we're we're it feels like honestly, it feels like we're a puzzle and we're just the two pieces that fit together really well. And um Joyce just likes the things that I hate. Like thinking about processes and like doing yeah, doing all the all the things that I don't I don't enjoy doing, and I'm just so filling out forms, filling out all the forms.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

I don't know how she does it slowly and with deeple because everything is in German.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Joyce, um, would you add anything? The word of the buttons for other women, maybe you know, other co-founder women co-founders who are feeling a little nervous about betting on themselves.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Yeah, I mean, I think one thing I would like to add, which I'm not good at, but like I'm trying to be better at, and I think Heidi helps me with this a lot, is just don't overthink it. Just do it, just do it, don't overthink it. It doesn't have to be perfect, just get it out there.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

That's so good. Okay. Take action, right? Exactly. But also, if you can find a partner who gels well with you, who likes doing the things you don't want to do, don't let them go. Treat them well and invest in the partnership. That's what I'm I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And cross that bridge when you get there. I mean, yeah, one step at a time.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Yeah. Well, thank you again to both of you for your example, for your great partnership. Um, thank you for coming onto the podcast. Thank you for sharing your uh journey uh as well as you know your coaching experience. Um, thank you so much. And I wish both of you all the best. Thank you. Thanks for having us. It was fun. As an executive coach for women, I'm super passionate about helping smart women who hate office politics get promoted and better paid. I do this through my unique combination of number one, self-directed neuroplasticity tools backed by science, number two, negotiation strategies proven to work for women by academic research, and number three, intersectional feminist lens that honors women's lived experiences. To learn more about my one on one coaching series and to book your free hour long consultation with me, come on over to Jamileecoach.com slash apply. It's Jameleecoach.com slash apply. J A M I E L E E C O A C H dot com slash apply. Talk soon.