Jamie Lee: 

Welcome to Risky Conversations, because everything that's worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. I'm your host, Jamie Lee, an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics. I help them get promoted and better paid without throwing anyone under the bus.

Today, I'm speaking with Caroline Stokes, a global leadership strategist who's about to drop a game-changing book that every ambitious leader needs to read. 'Aftershock to 2030' isn't just another leadership book - it's a radical roadmap for navigating our complex, AI-driven world.

Before we dive in, I want to invite you to two things in the show notes. First, pre-order Caroline's book - trust me, you're going to want this blueprint for leadership reinvention. And second, take my two-minute leadership archetype quiz. In just 120 seconds, you'll uncover your unique leadership superpowers, learn how to advocate for yourself, and get actionable strategies that will help you rise without compromising your integrity. Come on over to jamieleecoach.com to take the quiz and get on the weekly newsletter list. 

Now without further ado, please enjoy this interview with Caroline Stokes. 

Jamie Lee  
Jamie Lee, welcome to risky conversations. My name is Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics, and I help them get promoted and better paid without throwing anyone under the bus. And why do we engage in risky conversations? Because everything that's worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. I'm so thrilled to have my guest Caroline Stokes today, because Caroline is somebody that I look up to. When I learned about Caroline, I started reading her writing online. I'm like, she gets it. She really understands the perspective of people who are not always the most outspoken, but who have incisive insight into how things can be better for more people and therefore generate even better results. Caroline is a global leadership strategist for the fifth Industrial Revolution. She's going to tell us what that means. She's also the author of Aftershock to 2030 a CEO's guide to reinvention in the age of AI climate and societal collapse, a radical roadmap for leaders navigating our disruptive new reality. This book cannot come any sooner. Caroline's pioneering leadership model fuses trauma aware systems, emotionally intelligent AI and adaptive intelligence to prepare CEOs and other leaders for post growth. Poly crisis defined era, and we're of course, going to unpack what that means. She's also a Sony alum who contributed to the launch of PlayStation and a PCC level EQ 2.0 certified coach. Caroline has evolved from executive Headhunter to one of the few global authorities on psychological and strategic leadership reinvention. She works with founders, boards, executive teams to build intelligent, sovereign and trust based systems aligned with the complexity of our time. Welcome to risky conversations. Caroline, thank

Caroline Stokes  
you so much for having me, and thank you so much for such a generous and generous introduction. Thank you.

Jamie Lee  
Really mean it, because I'm a terrible liar. I when I started reading your articles and and your book, it's like she understands. She gets it. So tell us. Tell us what, what does it mean? What is after shock to 2020, 30, what is the significance of 2030 maybe you can give us a quick overview for the those of us who are uninitiated to the poly crisis era. Or not, not sure exactly what that means.

Caroline Stokes  
Yeah. So, well, okay, I'm going to try and unpack that question in various ways, because there's, there's a lot in that question, and it's a tough question to ask straight out of the sorry to answer straight out of the gate, because it's actually quite challenging for people to be able to tackle the whole idea that we are still in the crisis that we were in Back in 2020 during the pandemic, which started everything, and a lot of people are in denial about that, but from a central nervous system perspective, we feel it. We watch the news, we hear what's happening, we see everything that is going on, from a climate perspective, from a societal perspective, geopolitical perspective, and it's pretty overwhelming for everybody to be able to handle all of that. So I call this the aftershock. And just to do a quick rewind to 1970 Alvin Toffler wrote the book Future Shock, and his book was really talking about the warning everybody saying that with technology, everything would be accelerating so fast, society and humans would not be able to keep up. And here we are. We're in a situation where we're all pretty stunned. We're either fighting it, we're trying to flee from it. So fight flight, freezing during it, thinking that actually is okay, or, you know, living in denial through to, you know, fawning and just, you know, pretending that everything is okay. So the issue is, is that we are in a big systems challenge right now, and it starts from the human perspective, and how we handle that, through fight, flight, freeze, Fauci through to, you know, the the generational trauma that we may have, have, have, have experienced, which kind of takes it that much further beyond the cognitive level that we were used to thinking from a critical thinking perspective. And now, if you put all of that together, we have to work out between now and 2030 how we sit in this new world that we have created. We've all been part of that system. We're all at this glorious moment of how each of us have contributed to this scenario that we are living in and experiencing, and it is a very, very deeply, deeply uncomfortable situation for every single one of us to be in, and we need to work out how we are able to adapt ourselves so we are in a situation where we can cope with it, manage it, work through it, create businesses around it and move forward in a very productive way where we're not strangling each other.

Jamie Lee  
Yeah,

you're inviting us. Yeah, you're inviting us to perhaps the riskiest of all risky conversations, which is, how have we brought ourselves to this unsustainable place? And then, how do we move ourselves forward? And if I recall correctly, 2030, was significant because it according to, was it the UN according to the governing bodies, that would be when our global warming would tip over 1.5 Celsius beyond the Current, I guess the current point and more glaciers, the melting would just accelerate, and that would sort of further accelerate the crisis that we're in,

Caroline Stokes  
precisely and, you know, just thinking about the severity of This reality, it's a lot of it's what people just really don't want to deal with. I mean, we're all we're all recycling, we're all trying to ensure that we are creating Net Zero organizations, or many are. And then there's the challenge as well, that a lot of political leaders are withdrawing from some of the commitments that are necessary to to adjust. And the reality is, is that, and this is why I wrote the book, CEOs have an opportunity to really assess their their own business moving forward big, and to identify, to try to identify what where the market is for themselves, where the market is for their employees, how they need to evolve with technology, and how they're going to be able to create an environment that will sustain their employees as well as their customers. Because people aren't going to buy a product if, if if they have no need for it. So I think there, there needs to be a an agreement between CEOs that goes beyond politics, that goes beyond, you know, green, green washing statements that we know, that a lot of organizations have done in the past, to really identify what, where do they need to go so that they're relevant, not just for themselves, but they're able to evolve forward, just in the right way, and just to go back to the climate situation, I went to MIT specifically to do an executive education course on back then. It was in some, quite a few years ago, and it was specifically on this which, because I was absolutely fascinated, having started work back in the very, very early 90s, working at the body shop, because I was very interested in climate, very interested in, you know, not harming animals and what have you. And then I went to the dark side and joined Sony, because that's where you make money, and that's that was, that was the that was the pull for me. So, you know, I've kind of worked on, well, I have worked on both sides, which is that I've worked in consumerism, I've worked in very capitalist environments, and then conversely, I've worked in that more planetary. Aware, more people aware, more you know, planet, global, global protection. Let's call it an environment. And what more aware. And the issue back then, I think back in the 90s, it was, it was a great mission, but really, people weren't, once appreciating it then, because the lure of consumerism is much more, it's, it's, it's more satisfying for our brains we get really high on, you know, playing with video games or playing with our mobile phones and what have you. So you know, really, we're at this change right now, and we know from the. Uh, reading about the US Surgeon General's work specifically on on loneliness and burnout and workplace environments, just how important it is that organizations understand the impact of all of these stressors and to try and create harmonious workplaces, but that that's that's too that's too much for most organizations to be able to do that, because the pressures are really high. So this is why the book really goes through. It's a bit like a coach approach and a systems approach to be able to for leaders, CEOs in particular, to to go through that process so they're able to adapt for this new world, because the old paradigm is really ancient history now, and there are so many leaders that, or authors, I should say, and coaches and strategists that are also working in this particular area. So I'll give you an example, one of my favorite authors, Nicholas Johnny, he wrote a book. It won business book of the year, I think, in 2022 and it's called leader is healer. And it's phenomenal, because it was the first book that had won an award business book of the year, to acknowledge that leaders need to adapt the old paradigm. And he used this uses this language, the old paradigm is dead, and leaders need to evolve, you know, moving from quarterly targets, moving to, you know, a very different mental and an embodied system. And then when you combine that with AI in the AI revolution that we're experiencing right now, it's really crucial that that CEOs leaders adapt rapidly. And when I was writing the book, it was an ordeal,

Jamie Lee  
because writing a book is always an ordeal,

Caroline Stokes  
but it was an ordeal because, you know, I'm having to, with my heart and my head, work out in in my lifetime. How am I going to support CEOs to make this transition? Because everybody's pretty much in fight, flight, freeze form and not wanting or not knowing how to move forward. And the feedback that I've had so far from so many sources already, while they read the manuscript before it comes out in July, is this is an absolutely critical book for CEOs to be able to read, to understand how they got here, what they need to do about it, and then a 100 day action plan on how they're able to move forward. And, yeah, I that's, that's my, it's my last kind of swan song for the world, or for myself, from myself, to ensure that I've done my part to support the world at a time when it, you know, if we go and pass that 1.5 degree point in climate change, which it's not looking very positive right now, that we're going to we're going to be in a very different world, and we need to be prepared for that. But there are lots of different ways that we're able to try to prevent that, and the tipping point is, and this is the really sad thing that people don't get. And I didn't even get it, and I had done an MIT course specifically on this science and how businesses can evolve. With regards to it, is that there's this thing called permafrost, and it's in the Arctic Ocean, and when that melts, there's going to be this thing, such a depressing topic. I'm so sorry. The there'll be this thing called a carbon bomb. And all the carbon that we currently have in the atmosphere right now, it's like double that. And you know, if anybody's going to fact check me, yes, it's probably wrong, because I'm doing this off the top of my head. But once that comes out, there's, there's, there's no putting it away, which is why people like Bill Gates and many others are trying to create carbon capture, uh, units and trying to accelerate that. But that is very expensive. It's going to take a lot of time for a lot of investment to happen there. So you know, until you know, there are some phenomenally radical technologies that are able to adapt that, sorry, to to capture carbon. You know, how we're living, how we're how we're selling our products, how we're using. You know, whether it's oil, gas, the way we live, breathe, use, you know, materials is going to continue working working through that. So, yeah, we're in a very different paradigm right now, and a lot of people can feel it. A lot of people can see it. A lot of people know it, but a lot of people don't know how to harness it, make it happen and make make the change that they want to see in the world.

Jamie Lee  
So. So the question that's coming up for me is, is there any growth in the post growth

Unknown Speaker  
era?

Caroline Stokes  
Hmm, is there any growth in the post growth area? The area, I mean, just if you look at AI, robotics. And I touch on this somewhat. I don't talk about embodied AI, which is robotics, but if you just have to listen, listen to Kathy Wood, who and look at anything on AI, it's like, this is the major growth area, and this is why I've got a section in my book specifically about incorporating AI into your organization so you're able to use it as a force multiplier, as a co pilot, to be able to accelerate our own ability to think and lead. And I've been that way inclined since for some time, and that's why I was writing about AI back in 2016 2017 but the 17, but the the so with that, yes, with there's going to be some great niche markets that I'm not aware of right now that are going to just explode. There are, I found a company quite recently that is focusing on AI that is able to detect what's happening in the world that will impact supply chains and things like that. Growth will only happen if we're on top. We've got our finger on the pulse, and we're able to see what might shift so we're able to anticipate it and move forward rather than being in a pandemic type of environment or situation. One of the things that I like about grok, for example, when I heard that it had been incorporated in Elon Musk's AI system, there's there's an opportunity there. And people call it the singularity, which sounds really scary, but when we can understand what we can detect, and I've got this analogy in my mind, which is that, you know, there's a tremor in Brazil, and what happens if there's a tremor in Brazil, for example, there's an earthquake in Brazil. I don't want to put fear in anybody, but supposing that impacts the supply chain of tomatoes, and that means that the tomatoes aren't going to be, you know, available for the canning company, or for the for, you know, for it to be received you've got in various other countries. Or, you know, there can be, it's like an early warning system that will enable organizations and companies and individuals to be able to adapt like that, without having to do the wait and see which is the fight, flight, freeze, Fauci, kind of vagal theory that we all experience, which prevents us from moving forward. So if we're able to work with AI, and there's lot, and I just came back from Web Summit, for example, a couple of weeks ago, that was here in Vancouver, I was able to see that there's lots of different companies that are doing very interesting things with AI that is going to enable the organizations that really need, need these insights, need these signals, to be able to make the changes rapidly and to be able to have very productive conversations with with, you know, internally, to make, make the right decisions, have the right contingency plans so they're able to move forward in the right way.

Jamie Lee  
So yes, in very niche places, and also, we have to learn how to work with AI, not against it, or, you know, worse, stick your head in the sand and pretend it's not there. Mm, hmm. 100%

Caroline Stokes  
I mean, other niche areas are going to be really interesting. One of the things that I'm thinking about, and I've seen lots of information about it, unfortunately, I can't credit them, because I have a terrible memory, and I apologize for that. But, you know, there's a lot of thinking right now about the idea that AI is going to change the way influencers are going to be, or experts are going to be consumed, or the we're not going to it's not going to be as they're not going to be as accessible, and that communities are going to be more important. So you know, thinking about what communities are going to create products, create experiences locally. So you're able to maybe ensure that you know if there, if and when there are certain, let's say deficits. You know, you may not be able to get your salary anymore so you can make your stock you know, what are you going to do instead? You're going to go and find you know something else. But here I'm probably sound probably a little bit too far ahead, but we know for a fact that supply chain issues happen, especially now with geopolitics and pandemics and all of that kind of stuff. And I hate to sound do miss, but this is kind of going to be our norm now. So you know, we. Trying to find realities that are more local is going to be really important. And from there, I think that's where the growth to answer your first question or your last question. That's where the growth is going to be. The growth is going to be more in communities, whether or not that's online, whether or not that's thinking communities, whether or not that's local communities for agriculture, agri tech, and various other aspects. So you're able to get, you know, food and, you know, gatherings with other people to ensure that, you know, we're all mentally healthy and we're able to do business. But there's, there's so many different aspects to it, and it's, it's very exciting. As you can tell, I am excited about it, because this is the route that we're taking. It's taken me years to accept this. I think the pandemic really made me see how the world adapted or didn't adapt to the reality realities. And you know, we've got a long way to go until we're all working collectively to be and collaboratively to make it work. You know, right now, we're all fighting it, we're all denying it, and instead, there's an opportunity to be able to accept it and to have the kind of conversations without it being a political conversation. And those you know so you're talking about risky conversations. It's a risky conversation. I'm having this risky conversation with you because, you know people are gonna go, she's crazy that you know this. Why is she speaking in this way? I don't you know I'm speaking in this way because I've just had access to so much information. I've gone to MIT twice to do an AI and an ESG course and to get certified in that. I've interviewed all the people, or not all many people, to identify various trends that are happening. And one of the things that I do is just naturally, is bring all of those systems together. And here it's the human systems, the geopolitical systems, the trends that I'm seeing in the news to and then to be able to use my coaching lens to be able to say, Okay, this is, this is, this is your journey on how to get to a point where you're able to accept, adapt and actually be productive. Because there's going to be a lot of people that are going to feel burned out, depressed, hopeless, and I really feel very strongly about supporting people that where they can feel like they're part of a movement. And I'm not talking about being an activist or an anarchist, but to be able to find a movement where they're able to feel productive and to be and to not, you know, feel a lot of those negative emotions that we often feel when, when we're feeling powerless.

Jamie Lee  
I really love how the more you have dove into these topics, into these needy, technically complicated, very complex systems. What I'm taking away from having read your book and having talked to you is like it's almost as if you're inviting us to be wide eyed, open eyed, about how fragile humans truly are, right? I love how you talk about nervous system regulation, how that? That is the leadership strategy, that is the call of leadership, right now, right? And neuroplasticity, this is the direct quote from your book. Neuroplasticity is the meaning of life. From understanding comes growth, right? So it's, it's like, the more things get chaotic, or however you want to volatile, right? It's like we have to fully just embrace our deeply flawed, fragile humanity. And that's, that's what I'm really taking away. What do you think about that?

Caroline Stokes  
Yeah, well, yes, we're all very fragile. We're all, we've all, you know, had a very we all have our unique operating systems in our mind. We have our own simulations in our mind about, you know, how we like to operate, how how reality should should be, how we should be experienced in the world, how people should understand your own perspective. I think a lot of people think that, you know, people, people should be able to mind, read our needs, and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. But putting that aside, what I want to say as well is that when there has been something very tragic that has happened, it is very hard to think in that way. So, for example, you know, let's say

Jamie Lee  
it keeps happening again and again in this era, it is going to

Caroline Stokes  
happen. But there's, there are times when, let's just say that there can be an absolute tragedy. There's somebody that I know. I don't want to mention her name in case she's offended, but she had her family home burned down in the fires back in January of this earlier this year, and in. California and completely burned down, absolutely devastated and devastating situation. Could I have this conversation with her about all of these things I can't imagine I could do, because when you're you've just had your life destroyed, all your thinking is and I can't speak to her about, on her behalf, about this, but I had to use my, you know, my What? What must she be feeling? Which is, she must have been in survival mode to have everything replaced, you know, from her clothes to, you know, trying, trying to find precious photographs, to making sure that the kids are able to get to school, that, you know, that they're able to get to work, you know, all of these things while they now have nothing. So, you know, there are people that have absolutely nothing right now, whether or not they've just been involved in a hurricane due to climate change and the ripple effects there, through to, you know, just devastating outcomes. So this book isn't for them, you know, this is the book for trying to prevent further,

further trauma, because we're going to be experiencing this, you know, I can have this conversation with you right now, if My apartment is blown away by a, you know, by by by a storm. I thanks to climate change, I would not be able to do what I am doing right now. So I feel like I'm in a very privileged position, from a nervous system regulation perspective, to be able to go, Yeah, I can accept all of these things, and I'm able to do the work. I'm able to try and make, the world a better place in my own way. But there are people that are they're currently traumatized, deeply traumatized. They're having they're in survival mode. They're not going to be able to do this work right now. They're having to. They're in survival mode probably for the next year or two, for the people that are maybe adapting their organizations that are looking at trying to find a better way forward. This is where it's like, okay, you have to look inward. And this is where the book is going to be able to support the support the individual, and the ripple effects, the ripple effects. But as the as the book, as the reader goes through the book, they're able to see how they're able to incorporate AI and how they're able to look at how the environment has changed so they can anticipate the kind of changes that they need to make for their organization and for their employees to ensure that that they're able to move forward. This isn't for billionaires that I mean, actually, yes, it could be for billionaires, but the majority of you know the the media will say about billionaires that they're but they're building their bunkers. And this isn't about building a bunker. It's about trying to find better ways of of moving forward, for for for themselves, for their families and for their employees, and obviously, for their for their customers and the stakeholders in the in their supply system.

Jamie Lee  
Thank you for that. I mean, I'm thinking, we're recording this in June, and as we're recording this, we're hearing about these protests in Los Angeles, you know, the same, same area of California that had all this wildfires. Now, you know, they have ICE raids and and people protesting them peacefully most of the time, and also the government sending national I mean, it's just chaotic. It's, it's upsetting, and I could imagine for the people who have lived through the wildfires, it's, it's like, as you said, double tragedy. Yeah, it's a lot. But for the people for whom this book is written, after shock 2030, for those people, let's say they're like millionaires. Maybe they're millionaire CEOs, right? I'd imagine they would have their board of directors breathing down their neck, you know, with expectations to meet margins and to perform, to generate, you know, returns for their investors. And so how do you propose those CEOs make a case for doing the work that you, you know, describe in the book, and we want to hear more about that. But like, how do you propose they advocate for this kind of human centric work when the pressure is, you know, on them to generate profit over caring about people.

Caroline Stokes  
Isn't that sad question?

Jamie Lee  
Yeah, but, I mean, there's a

Caroline Stokes  
great question, but it's a sad question that CEOs are going to typically have this challenge with their board of directors who are, and I kind of use the term that they're addicted to, you know, profit and, you know, not being able to take risks. So the the challenge is, is that the the the risks are there if you do or if you don't. So it's, it's, it's just, it's just challenging that way. And I. In this era. You know, the employee sentiment isn't going to cut it anymore. It's it's all about, how does an organization need to reinvent itself? How does the leadership team need to reinvent itself, to to to brace itself for this era, and how to influence your board of directors. This is, this is the tricky thing. I mean, Paul Polman does a phenomenal job. He he was the CEO of Unilever, and he wrote a phenomenal book, which I recommend every CEO reads. It feels almost, I mean, this is very inspirational. It's very inspiring, but it almost feels a little bit out of date, because I feel that the language doesn't resonate with the critical moment in time that we are in right now. It was written some years ago, and I feel that the reality is significant thanks to latest political changes. So I don't know when it was written, but anyway, so I, I, so how do you influence your board of directors? Well, first of all, I'd really encourage somebody to read the book, because then they're able to go through the every single chapter, and they're able to go through that process to understand that there, there is no other way forward, and that it has, it will provide them with the the language, the necessary language. But it isn't just the language this that it it will create the, the kind of insights that will the reader will say, there is no other option. There is no other way forward. And one of the things that I talk about, which is quite profound, actually, is just the amount of people, amount of CEOs that have resigned year on year, is increasing dramatically. And I mentioned in the book that I believe this is because they can see what's coming, and they've tapped out. And that's a terribly rude thing to say, but the level of leadership that is required today to be able to it requires a seismic shift that most CEOs, if they're so attached to the old way of doing things, and they are not, either they're not prepared, or mentally prepared to accept that they need to change and that their systems need to change, and that they're excited to change it, because it's almost like an unstoppable mission. Then, you know, then people are going to be saying, Okay, well, you know, I've got my, I've got my, you know, shares, I'm just going to go and do something else and because it's just going to be too hard. And that's the thing, it is going to be too hard. It's a five year project for any organization, and just going back to Paul Polman, he had to influence his board of directors, and he outlines it very well in his book on how he did that.

Jamie Lee  
So I'd imagine there's a business case. There's a strong business case for doing this work, because, I mean, without our people aligned right with our people feeling safe and, yeah, psychologically safe to do the work, right? Even with all this stuff that's going on, like, we can't really move forward 100%

Caroline Stokes  
and, you know, everybody has a sense of moral injury right now, there's about what they're doing and they're most people aren't able to find the language for it on how they are in some way, contributing to to the to the environment, and this the situation that we are in. So it is a really, really tough, tough thing to go through, to go through that realization. And I'll just give you an example. Okay, so I've gone through the grief. There's this thing called Climate grief, which is very significant. There is also like, let's call it old paradigm grief, which is that we are used to certain way of working. We're used to We're used to the freedoms that of being able to experience work in a certain way. But because, as we know with Alvin Toffler, there was this future shock, we're here in this precise moment. We are grieving. I think we're collectively all grieving that we've lost the world that we thought was being built. And you know, AI has accelerated so significantly since chat GPT was launched in I think it was 2022 2020 Yeah, 2022 and. And it's accelerated to such a rate that we're only now being able to see exactly how much is impacting organizations, and with the layoffs, the number of layoffs, and what have you. So we're all collectively grieving, which is a really hard thing to say, and I'm sure a lot of people would just say, Caroline, you're exaggerating. But the first time I experienced climate grief, for example, was when I was doing the ESG course at MIT, and they actually warned us in the first week, they said, We're going to be putting a lot of data on you about the fragility and the tipping point that we are at right now with with the world and the planet and the environment and how we live, you're going to feel very depressed and full of and hopeless. And when I heard that, I was like, boy, what have I done? I was coming here for answers. I was trying to come here to try and work things out. So this is why, again, you know, I've kind of written a book that is focusing on the answers, on how somebody can move forward. And that's why I think Brookings Institution said very, something very nice about my book in the foreword, and why other people are also saying great things about the book. What was the they're providing testimonials for the book right now. So

Unknown Speaker  
it's, it's,

Caroline Stokes  
whilst it doesn't look very promising and we're all going to be filled with a lot of grief, I'm really hoping that the book provides a lot of insight, especially if the work is done and it's used as a field guide and a guidebook, rather than, you know, just just having something that you know, people will skim through for the leaders to do the work that they need to do, either through the book or with other coaches, using the book as a guide to specifically go and and make the change that I think everybody their family members, their you know, their kids, their spouses, their you know, relatives, their friends, their family would would be really proud of them to do, and especially their employees. And, of course, the customers, because everybody wants to buy products, and it's not a case of greenwashing here. Everybody wants to buy products that it's like, oh my gosh, this is the best choice. The I'm going to be buying this, because it's going to, it's going to be less CO two in on I'm going to, when I buy this, it's going to be less CO two than something else. And I just kind of put in a little ad here, which is that I convinced my book publisher. I said, you know, I cannot have a book launched that is going to be seven kilograms of carbon for every book sold that goes into the atmosphere. I this has to be digital only where it's not point three kilograms and and it took a really, really long time. And they said, What? Even for libraries? They said, No, we can't do this. It's like, it's, it's time for publishers to realize that they are part of the problem. If you know, like the the amount of carbon dioxide in the air, CO two in the air, in the atmosphere, is going to have such a profound difference, and we cannot. We have to we still have to learn. We still have to adapt. Unfortunately, with technology, we're able to do that at a fraction of the fraction of the cost to the environment.

Jamie Lee  
I love how in the book, you make such a strong case for our profession. Carolina, are both coaches, and you're like, a champion for coaches and therapists because of everything that we just discussed, right, moral injury, nervous system dysregulation, stress response, you know, fight, flight, freeze, fun like this is now becoming our norm. Like, I know so many clients who are experiencing burnout, even though they're just performing, you know, they're just doing their job, but the the velocity and the volume of information being logged up and they just feel overwhelmed. So the thing that you spoke on grief, I feel I have worked with both therapists and coaches, but when I worked through grief, like when my father passed away five years ago, and I worked with a coach through that grief, it was the most profound experience that I had. Because we connected. I got to connect with this, this deep, boundless love without hitting myself, without, you know, falling into, you know, some unhealthy habits. It just like falling into that love is how I move through the grief. And I think our hearts break about all the things that you talked about because we were in love with the. Dream with what could have been, right? And so maybe you can tell us a little bit more. I don't want to give away, you know, too much. Maybe, maybe we can hear from you like, you know, there's so many great concepts that you walk us through in the book, but you You're really a big champion for like, a chief coach officer,

Caroline Stokes  
yes, exactly, exactly. Well, thanks for bringing that up. So, 100% so, so the and this is just like so

much work in in piecing this all together for the future organization to be able to thrive. How do you as a CEO, create the kind of change when everybody is stuck, and there are various S curves of the grief of the S curve, grief system. They've got their own personal challenges. May you know that everybody has their own personal challenges, their own operating system. How you know? And then when they get to work and they realize they're taking themselves to work, they're getting to work whether or not they're a remote worker or whether or not they have to go into a place of work. There's, they're bringing their whole selves to work, you know, there's, you can't leave your brain at the door. We are not in a severance you know, plot line here where you can just switch off and be another person to do that, that job. So when you bring the whole self to work, it can hijack our ability to perform it. We and it comes through as bullying. Sometimes, if we're so if we're wanting to fight the change, and we may not know how to fight how to manage it, or we may freeze and not want to, want to be able to do it. So I have this framework about CEO avatars in the book, which is how a CEO performs based on and the implications of how they've performed and how they need to perform, and how coaching or therapy or whatever will enable them, especially with an AI support or assist assistant or co pilot, will be able to support them at a at a rate of like the scale and the pace should be absolutely profound. And I've done the testing, and I know it works. However, back to the CEO of Avatar, when, if the CEO themselves is the most advanced thinker in this particular phase, let's say they've done the work. How do you get the rest of the organization to do it? And that's why, when I first created I had my first book, elephants before unicorns, emotionally intelligent strategies to save your company, that was designed for CEOs to understand that actually your employees are unintentionally sabotaging your goals, which is a very shocking concept for most people, because we're all supposed to be aligned with the OKRs. We're all supposed to be, you know, aligned with KPIs. But when HR with their pips, come to me or any other coach, and say, okay, this person isn't performing. It's like, well, guess what? It's because of all of these dynamics that are hidden, that's under the water or hidden somewhere else that is impacting somebody's ability to be able to communicate. Everybody's speaking at cross purposes. So back to your question about the chief coaching officer, we've got this situation where, holy smokes, we need to create an AI system that can be through the organization, through, like, throughout the entire organization. And it's not just about the day to day to analytics. It's not going to be a it's not going to be some kind of legal system that is going to catch people, you know, if they're being inappropriate. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a chief coaching officer, slash AI co pilot, that can work with the entire organization to make the shifts throughout the entire organization. And what I mean by that is that, and for that Chief coaching officer to have an entire team, an entire squad that can come in to support the the people until AI is able to incorporate so it can be incorporated, because lot of the people have a challenge whereby, number one, they don't trust AI. Number two, they probably don't trust HR. Number three, they probably don't trust CEOs. At the beginning of the book, I talk about the lack of trust for CEOs right now. So how are you going to be able to change all of that you need to have, or my argument is that we need a chief coaching officer that can work at that top line, through the line, through all of the organizations, the verticals, the horizontals, to ensure that the systems are clear and transparent. And when you have a chatgpt equivalent, and I call it. Coaching GPT that is able to support, let's say, an employee within the organization when they need to pitch something. How are they going to pitch something? How are they going to influence something? When they are maybe stuck, maybe they're in fight, flight, freeze, phone, or whichever one of those four that they might be in. Because we all vacillate to any of them depending on what the challenge is, based on our own trauma, we're going to be in a situation where we may not be, you know, presenting in the most optimal way. We may not be collaborating, we may not be using language in the most optimal, optimal way. So imagine that that co pilot is providing you with the guidance and the support that is needed in a way that is going to support their function, at that, not just their functionality, but their performance, how they show up, and to be able to go at the end of the day, you know what? I use this co pilot, which I have done with my clients, and when I use that, they're accelerating. Sorry, I'm just chuckling at myself in my head, because it is profound. They're accelerated. They're taking years, because I've worked in coaching for so long, years of progress and turning it into months. They're just bringing the S curve way down and being incredibly productive and incredibly dynamic. And I'm not talking about, you know, being a high flyer, dynamic, you know, kind of sharpshooter type of individual, but they're seeing their dramatic they're seeing their performance move forward in such a dramatic way that alongside a coach, by the way, with a coach, that they're able to move forward and and create the results that, guess what, they were hired to do. And it's just, it's just sorry I'm smiling so broadly because, you know, I've seen it in action. I've worked with my clients when this happens. And if I, if I can see more coaches use this, use AI as a tool to accelerate they're able to accelerate their their ability to perform with their clients that much faster as well. So the whole idea, just to go back to your original question, which is, you know about the chief coaching officer. If it's positioned as, like, say, as a separate HR function, or you assign it to HR, it's there's a trust issue, as we know with HR. And if it's done in that way, chances are most to organize, most, people within the organization won't trust it. They'll think that there's going to be legal ramifications, there's going to be all sorts of things associated with it, when the reality is we need support in the job to be able to move forward. And I have some like sci fi examples of how that's already been demonstrated in various sci fi movies, as well as severance, which is my favorite example of how having a coach for the individual, of individuals and for teams, and team coaches, group coaches, interdepartmental coaches, etc, is going to be able to amplify it a lot faster. And, you know, I could keep going on, so I'm good, but I think that that's this in a nutshell,

Jamie Lee  
fascinating. So you're offering a solution that helps people grow trust in the organization. So I'm sure you have thought through like some of the privacy concerns that employees might have, and this is the reason why you got to go get the book. And I'm curious, for people who want to be CEOs, right? What would you recommend for them, people who are not yet CEOs, but they're like, they got lots of ambition. They're like, Hey, I could ride this wave. What is coming ahead in the next five plus years? I'm I really want to be CEO. Like, where would you recommend they start? Well, obviously,

Caroline Stokes  
reading the book is going to be great. Um, having a coach is great. I mean, I'll give you an example. I won't be able to mention their name, but somebody that I coached some time ago, he was senior director. He wanted to be VP within the year he became VP in the year he's now SVP. I sent him the manuscript because I know one day he's going to be CEO and he's going to be nominal, because, you know, he can see systems. He's able to communicate, he can influence, he can make he's very strategic. He's data very data oriented. He will look at data, and he will go in at any time. He's one of the elite performers, very, very high performing individual for this era. He's perfect for it. So, you know, for somebody like him, he's a natural in a very large organization with, you know, where they're earning a billion dollars a quarter. So, you know, that's someone like him in, you know, fortune 100 company, then you've got other leaders where, you know, maybe they want to be a CEO of a startup. Maybe they are, and the startup is just them, and a tech technology person, or the CEO is a technology person, and they need to hire a CEO or Chief Revenue Officer or whatever, and they're really small. They're still working out of the basement or the garage or or maybe they're working on other sides of the planet, because, you know, they managed to find each other, and they're, you know, very strong in their mission. So, you know, gone from billion dollar organizations to, you know, startups. So it's all about if somebody is curious, and I think this is the, you know, this is the most important aspect on somebody, CQ, curiosity, quote quotient, if they're wanting to win a game, the game, this is, that's, that's all that's required. If so, if, if they've ever wanted to win the game, if they've ever been in a situation where they are not they're not happy that the world is like this, how can they hack that system? This is the book to hack the system, but it's done. I believe this book is very ethical. It's focusing on on everything in the right way. It's not trying to monetize chaos. It's it's being deliberate and choosing to be very conscious about how to move forward with looking at all of the systems in play, from the human to the environment to geopolitical, all of the headwinds imaginable using technology as well, but it requires curiosity. It's like, you know, if

Unknown Speaker  
people

Caroline Stokes  
are, if somebody who is wanting to be CEO, perfect, because that kind of hunger is rare, right? You know anybody that wants to be a CEO in this climate? Brilliant, because this is so much harder than it's ever been. And if they you have the appetite for this, go get it. Do it. Do it with your eyes wide open. Understand yourself, understand where you are, understand your your loops, your simulation, and how to hack yourself. So you're then able to, you know, manage, manage with all of the different circles of influence around you, so you're able to make an impact. I

Jamie Lee  
love it. CQ, like I'm thinking about some of my clients who also got promoted into VP or became CEOs, and they also had, like, intense mental curiosity for systems and how people systems, technological systems, work. But curiosity is also a wonderful communication strategy. It's a wonderful way to negotiate. It's a great way to establish trust and rapport, but also to gain information. Like, Hey, what are people's priorities? What are they concerned about? And you said, so, CQ, that's great, yeah. And

Caroline Stokes  
you know what? I just want to riff on what you just said then, because one of the things that I believe is very important, and it's about having listening tours. And I've always been talking listening tours for a really long time, and it's in the book, you know, the far there's the human approach, which I believe is very, very important when trying to create trust with your trust with your employees, listening, understanding the subtle cues, you know, and just listening very, very hard on the you know. Very polarizing example, which I've included in the book was Elon Musk's approach when he when he started leading Doge and the impact that he had when he sent that email around, demanding everybody send to him, or by Monday what people are up to. And it was a media eruption. Everybody was, you know, up in arms. For me that's worked in, you know, digital technology since 1993 I knew what he was doing. He was looking for the data so he could see where the trends were. And he would, you know, because I've worked with data scientists and what have you, it's like he's looking for data. He's not doing what some like this isn't, well, it was arguable. You know, he did actually say that, you know, people would be fired if they didn't. But putting that aside, he was just being dramatic, Love him or hate him. You know, I could read in between the lines, and he was, he was trying to put fire under people's butts, which he did specifically to get the data. The data was crucial. All, we cannot do anything without data. So the soft approach, which I think is a very solid approach, is to do it in person. If you can't do in person, do on a zoom call, if you can't do a zoom call, a phone call, why not just so you're able to detect the human aspects? You know why? Because people aren't going to trust you, and to do that for a while, but just to go back to Elon Musk, he sent the email around. It upset people, but that data is still really, really important, because when you collate it all, and you then put it through a system to see what the trends are, what might be missing, where the opportunities are, what can be done better, what can be done differently. Where are the blind spots? You know, you have data right there. So a CEO, a commander in chief, is able to do something about it. Data is, you know, as we know power. So I strongly believe that AI is going to be a force multiplier in that particular aspect, and that people and that organizations should and could be doing that now, to understand exactly, you know, what can be done for an organization moving forward, but that requires, again, Trust and, you know, legal legal perspectives aside for everybody to be on board with the fact that this is data to ensure that we can make the right decisions. You know, that's a mindset game as well, because people are often going to be in fear, and they will, you know, maybe write something in a way that would make them think that, well, you know, I have to protect my my job here. I have to protect my sense of being the expert. I have to protect this. You know, usually people have so many lenses in which they have to approach something. So I think there's going to be at some stage in the not too distant future with non digital first and non data first leaders, where they're going to become that way inclined,

Jamie Lee  
they're going to be more data inclined. In other words, yes, yeah, okay, so we can have this conversation for another whole hour. I'm so excited for your book to come out. You know, you just shared this unsolicited testimonials. I'm going to read it out loud. May I? Is that okay? Please, please. Yeah. This is from Kelly Leonard, VP of creative strategy, innovation and business development at the Second City incorporated and they wrote. Caroline Stoss has written a manifesto for modern leadership in aftershock to 2030 she dismantles the entire paradigm top down hierarchical systems, while issuing a clarion call for leaders to both embrace their inner artist and the technological revolution that has already arrived, whether we like it or not, my sincerest hope is that every CEO reads this book and acts accordingly. Our lives depend on it. I

Unknown Speaker  
know it's pretty intense, isn't

Jamie Lee  
it? No pressure, no pressure,

Caroline Stokes  
no pressure. People, yeah. I mean, I have to say, when, when Kelly sent me that testimonial, I was quite floored, because I went back to him, I said, Oh my God, you see, you see, you see my book. You see what it's about, and you see how critical it is for CEOs to reinvent themselves. Because, unfortunately, the sad reality is that is the CEOs just don't have that rock star persona that they used to have. You know, the pandemic kind of accelerated, that that tonality or sentiment, unfortunately. So, you know, CEOs really got to, you know, if they want to, if, if they, if they want to be the change that they want to see in the world, move forward in this way.

Jamie Lee  
Yeah, and for the work that I do with my career women, it's like, I always encourage them to think of themselves as the CEO of their careers. And I love the point you make about seeing the CEO needing to change their self concept as artists and maybe even rebels at times like you reference Michael Angelo in the book. So I love that any last words, anything that we haven't yet addressed, that you would love for the audience or future reader of Aftershock to 2030 to know

Caroline Stokes  
thanks for the question. I mean, I'm just kind of filled with, let's think about this a sense of, I. Real hope that people will understand and seek out the systems and how they can be a part of the future in a way that they're not going to look back in 10 years time and regret that they didn't take takes, you know, certain actions I find that when we feel, you know, angry, or we blame other aspects of the of society or the world or other generations, I mean, that is the signal that you know we have to work on ourselves To to understand and I just want to add this. It's almost like a parenthesis or as a side note, a sidebar, which is my conversation with GABA matte back in 2017 ish was really profound. And he he was the start of this, this book, because I actually approached him because he was writing a book back then about capitalism and how capitalism is damaging us or making us sick. And I think he actually converted the book to the myth of normal, which came out quite recently, which is the tomb of a thing. And I reached out to him, saying, Yeah, I worked in all of these organizations. I completely do believe that capitalism is making us sick. And guess what? You know, we're we're in a situation where we which we're in. So my point here is that he said to me, when I went to him, he said, and I'm not going to try and imitate him, but he said, Caroline, what you're experiencing is trauma. And I did not like him for saying that. I thought to myself, I'm stronger than this. I'm better than this. I am not traumatized. I am who I am and how I got here, and I'm going to do exactly what I need to do. I was kind of offended, and I spent quite a few years fighting that, and that was eight years ago, so it's taken me this long to get to go through that work by myself, with my coaches, with my therapist, awesome therapists, with doing EMDR, doing all sorts of things, and having my central nervous system completely overhauled, so I am able to apply my so I'm able to be a better coach, I'm able to write books, I'm able to do all of these things in a way that enables people to see systems in their place. So the point that I'm trying to make here is that if it took me eight years, I don't like that. That took me too long. This book is for people to do it in 100 days,

Jamie Lee  
very cool 100 Days. Ambitious, yeah, but I mean, at the back of the book, you've got, like a whole table laid out. I mean, it's, it's systematic. You follow, okay, I love it. You just reminded me. Back in 2020 I worked with a trauma coach, yeah, through, through the early days of the pandemic. And I also joined a group of people. We got together, and we were doing The Work of Byron Katie. I don't know if you're familiar with Byron Katie, but she has just a very simple, she's sort of like Eckhart Tolle, and she has a very simple but profound process for challenging the glitches of your operating system. Yeah. And that was very, supportive, and I love what you're saying, because what I'm taking away from this conversation is, after chapter 2030 like humans have, humans are bringing us to the to this poly crisis, and at the same time, humanity, connecting with our humanity is also the solution, augmented supported by AI, yes, but AI is ultimately also invented by humans. So it's like we have to reconnect with what makes us very human, even acknowledged or not acknowledging that we can experience trauma, to find our way through what's coming, what's here and beyond. That's what I'm thinking. It's

Caroline Stokes  
about. This book is about hacking yourself. Hack yourself so you're able to be the leader that you want to

Jamie Lee  
be excellent. Hacking something for you to be the leader you want to be excellent. Thank you so much, Caroline, for your time, for this book, for your gifts. We appreciate you,

Caroline Stokes  
and thank you so much for having me on and thank you for allowing me this opportunity to just share something that I'm really passionate about. Thank you for your time. Thank.