0:02  
Welcome to risky conversations. Why? Because everything that's worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. And I'm so delighted. I'm so happy, so happy to have two amazing women who happen to be sisters, and I've had plenty of risky conversations, one on one with both of them. Okay, I have one risky conversation with Beth and several risky conversations with Sj. We're kind of bending the rules here and defining what a risky conversation is. But welcome to the podcast, Beth Nichols and SJ Crawford. They also are the host, co host, of a wonderful new podcast called misinformation. I'm sorry I said it wrong, misinformed. There you

0:53  
go. I say it wrong all the time, and

0:56  
I always have to fix it, and it's okay since my service informed. Yes,

1:01  
I forget. What do I call it? I call it like Miss. I get it wrong every time it's okay, yeah, it's called misinformed. You should listen to it. It's super fun and silly and casual.

1:10  
I love that I was this is what I'm like. I want to be adopted. I want to be adopted by these two sisters. I want

1:16  
to be adopt us. Because I don't know that you want to be adopted. I Okay, I will adopt you more than happy. Thanks, mom.

1:30  
She's not that old. Beth. She was young.

1:34  
I look young for my age. I'm 43 I am not so, yeah, no one's old enough to be anyone's mother is here exactly. SJ is my coaching client, and Beth is someone I had a consultation with, because SJ was gracious and kind enough to refer me to her beloved sister. And that was a wonderful conversation. And Beth, I've been thinking about you because it was one of those conversations. I mean, I make offers for my free hour long consultations all the time, and at least one out of three consultation I have, I'm like, I cannot make an offer to this person because it just would not be the right thing for me to do. It's just it would be unconscionable. And the reason why I thought that with you Beth, why we had a great conversation, but ultimately, I didn't say, let's work together, is because I knew that. I knew, like at one point, you are someone that Martha Beck, a life coach, calls you're, a tribe person.

2:43  
Do you know who Martha Beck is? I've heard the name. Don't know it well enough.

2:46  
Martha Beck is a world renowned life coach. She used to write the monthly column in O magazine for Oprah Winfrey, okay? And she's also got multiple Harvard degrees, like super smart, smart as heck, and she's written amazing books and and she describes, in one of my favorite books, written by Martha Beck, she talks about the tribe. The tribe are the people who like we know we're supposed to be, excuse me, I'm going to say it healers.

3:21  
Totally get it. It's cool. I would have been a witch in a different time,

3:25  
exactly, exactly. And I'm like, I know she's supposed to be one of us, like I and whenever I encounter people like that, I'm like, What do I tell them? Because I I help, I help quiet. I help women get promoted and better paid in the corporate world. And I think SJ described it as business Barbie. Tell me if I'm wrong. Oh, my

3:48  
god, yeah. No, I called her business Barbie because Beth joined a conversation with you, Jamie, because Beth's been kind of and I'm gonna speak for Beth, like I always do as a sister. No, Beth has been fighting, in my opinion, her like, this natural, like, force from the outside to be business Barbie, like, that's what she should be. That's where it's felt like it's, that's what she's supposed to do as a professional woman, is be business Barbie who is doing things, frankly, the way I'm doing them, and that's good, but I'm doing no Well, you were doing them just like so unhappily, yes, and when I sent her to Jamie, I was like, I just think you need somebody who's not me and who's not your husband, because I'm risk. What's the opposite of risk averse, risk, delighted

4:33  
risk. Delighted. I love it.

4:36  
Risky. I tend to take riskier steps. And best husband is very conservative and not politically, but life wise, he tends to take the more conservative path. So it's like, you need to go talk to somebody who has no skin in the game. And when Beth finished talking with Jamie, she was like, the way she was expressing changing my career, she was just kind of bummed At first, she was like, I don't feel like Jamie once thinks I should be business Barbie. And I was like. Yeah, well, of course not. You're not

5:02  
business Barbie. I wasn't disappointed that you didn't want me to be business Barbie. I was a little bummed that you were saying exactly what I needed to hear. And it would have been way better for my brain that had been pushing me to be business Barbie, if you had agreed with that, because that path is a little more clear than what my heart and my soul probably need to be doing. And what Sarah like pins me to the wall saying you're not doing the thing that you're really good at. I'm like, but my brain is saying that this would be a more clear option. And Jamie did the same thing, where she was like, sounds like, you need to have more fun. Yeah, yeah, damn it. Why are people treat still trying to get me to have

5:45  
fun? She was Jamie. Jamie was the third party who was like, had no didn't know you before, didn't know you from Adam. Didn't have any reason. I mean, she could have tried to sell you on it,

5:54  
but you should work with her honestly. I mean, on Okay, first of all, I think SJ would have found any reason in my life to have me talk with Jamie Lee, because she just loves you so much. And she talked about you for months, and I was like, she sounds amazing. My career is going under right now. I don't think it's a good time, but then this the moment she saw an opportunity. She's like, talk to Jamie. Have you have you set up a time with Jamie? Yet? Have you set up a time? So I finally set up a time. And I was like, Hi, Jamie. I don't know that I'm your best client, but Jamie, you were so honest and upfront. But you were like, Hey, I don't think I'm going to try to sell you on something, but you got me. I'm in. Let's talk. And I appreciate that honesty so much. And I found myself saying something in our conversation that's kind of like rumbled around in my mind ever since I said, What boring thing Do I have to do before I can do the fun thing? And you repeated that to me, and I was like, Oh no, that's inside me. Like, that's what's that's what's actually happening inside my mind. Because objectively, I don't like the sound of that coming out of anybody else's mouth, but if that's something I've been harboring and believing, I don't want that to be true either. So it was just a really good conversation that got us started talking through, you know, more parts of Beth than just business Barbie.

7:09  
We'll get to business Barbie, because business Barbie is a lot of fun and amazing and incredible. We want to learn more. I want to dissect business Barbie. But before we do that, what happened after our conversation? Because I'm going to be totally honest with this is the risky part of my conversation. I'm like, is still going to be upset with me because I didn't try to tell I didn't try to sell her on coaching like, I'm like, did I disappoint my favorite client? I'm like, I was, I was like, a little bit nervous because I didn't know how it was going to be received. I'm like, This feels risky, like I'm going to be honest, but anyways, that's me, but I'm curious for you. Beth, what happened after our conversation? For you,

7:52  
yeah, so after our conversation, I did some journaling honestly, because I was feeling bummed and I was feeling a lot of insecurities, and they were overwhelming me, and I thought, I don't want insecurity to not be the reason why. Well, actually, first I did a Marco Polo to Sarah. This is app we use where we talk to each other, and it's a video so we don't talk over each other, and we can listen to one another. So I sent her this long like heartfelt. I hadn't even talked to my husband about it because it because it felt so personal that I was like, I don't feel like I can be vulnerable with anybody with this right now. I It's, it's too scary. And so I did a Marco Polo to her, because she couldn't interrupt me or talk to me about it back and I could just talk. And she got on. She's like, Beth, you know what you have to do? And I was like, No, I really don't tell me more. And she was like, You need to be a therapist and

8:42  
hold on. I did say first. I said first. I said, with all the love in the world, are you stupid? Yeah, that's right,

8:50  
with all the love, actually stupid.

8:52  
Wait, that's like, go ahead. Go ahead, Jamie, I'm

8:56  
gonna, I'm gonna give a quick plug to the podcast. Misinformed. You have to go listen to episode eight, dog catchers and dream jobs where, right? I love the titles and Beth and SJ, sort of, you know, rehash the story, the tell the story, though, there's more background, because we learned that Beth used to be in the process of becoming a play therapist.

9:24  
Yes, yes, yeah, that play therapist would be like a mental health therapist. But doing it sounds ridiculous when you say it, or if somebody doesn't know what it means, like play therapy, like you can get paid to play with children. Yes, actually, there's a lot of magic there. And I could probably tangent on it for a while, but I won't do that here. But Sarah basically was like, Are you stupid? Like, I love you, but I love you stupid. And I was like, okay, okay, okay. She's like, you need to, you need to pursue this. I was like, okay, so that got out there, so now somebody else on this planet knows. So now I've got two people that are encouraging. Yes. So I got up my journal and I just wrote down, like, all the things that I was worried about, what ifs all of my what ifs my insecurities, things that I don't understand or that are confusing to me or intimidating, all of it, and a lot of what had come up in even with talking with you, Jamie, was, what are people going to think? And I hate that that was something that I was concerned about and worried about I hate that, because I've spent most of my life thinking that I was an outsider anyway, so like, who cares what people think? But I also spent a lot of time trying to be mainstream. So to have all of all of a sudden my LinkedIn look different, or if I was pursuing toys or talking about playing, I mean, I've got toys on my desk right now. I don't know why this was intimidating to me. It's part of who I am, but it just that that was in my head. And so I went through all of those and I was like, Okay, I got that out. Let's find out what I need to do to make this happen, and what I thought were going to be these huge mountains that I had to climb and pull myself over ended up just being like little speed bumps. And I was like, Oh, I feel silly. And so since then, I have my license back active. It only took me a couple weeks. I will need to have supervision for a couple of years, but I'm working on getting that set up. I've got my therapist license, license, insurance. I have a gig already lined up, um, I'll be doing clay therapy at a private practice down the street from me. She has the play therapy rooms and everything, all the toys I've already interviewed with her, and I'm going to be starting on August 3, 13th. Sorry, not third. That was yesterday, August 13.

11:35  
This is the most successful failed sales call I've had

11:40  
ever, ever, Jamie, that's like, your success rate just skyrocketed one session unpaid. Has a new career. You stupid clients, right?

11:50  
Because Beth came to me because she's like, I think I need to go back to being up. Was it like project management you were doing? Yes,

11:56  
I have my PMP,

11:57  
right? And you're not having any fun.

12:02  
Yeah, more context to this, because part of the big reason I sent Beth to Jamie, and I hadn't done it previously, was because Beth had applied to, was it 150 drops? 118 I think it was insane. And she and if you asked, like, all the things like, have you had aI read it? Have you talked to a coach? Have you talked to like, all of the, like, a, like, a job resume person, like, all these things. And Beth is like, yes, yes, yes. She had done everything you were supposed to do, and it still wasn't working. And when I was job hunting and working with Jamie at that time, I told Jamie, I was like, I'm so I hate applying for jobs. And Jamie said, then stop. And I was like, Ooh, scandalous, risky. It ended up working for me. So when Beth said, like, I'm doing all of this, and I'm like, oh, it's not working, then you should stop. And Beth was like,

12:47  
What? What else would I do now? Who's stupid in this room? I

12:51  
was like, You should stop. And she was like, what else would I do? And I was like, I honestly think you need to because what I wanted to say at that time was like, I think you need to do something you actually want to do. I didn't say that because I was like, I don't think you're ready to hear that from me. Because, again, I'm the person who quits her job and starts her own business without really thinking about too hard. So I was like, I can't be the one to, like, kind of push you in this direction. And even honestly, from what I from what I heard of your conversation with Jamie, Jamie didn't really push you in any direction. She was like, Why do you think everything has to be un fun? Like, if you want more fun, Beth, you should have more fun. And that was really all, I mean, I'm sure you said other things, but that was, like, the big takeaway was like, you don't have to do this stuff you hate. And Beth was like, no, no, no, I must hate everything

13:35  
I do at work, I see in some kind of pain for life to be good.

13:39  
And you know, we're taught that, we're taught we're taught to believe that to be the truth, especially in our sort of, you know, America. We're all in America here, and we have, like, this puritanical influence in our education system. So we're taught that, like, hard work, keeping your head down, doing good work, sacrificing yourself, especially if you're a woman, right? That's how you get liked, that's how you are safe, that's how you get acknowledged and told that you're good. And so we're just turning that on its head, because we think by doing the hard and unfun things, will somehow get to a fun place, as if, you know that's the afterlife. But I'm like, what if there is no afterlife, and how we get there actually defines and shapes our journey, and our journey is the experience we want to live into, right? Like? What if the journey matters?

14:33  
Oh, my God, it's it's terrifying, though, because I remember in college talking to my friends, you know you're at your youngest. You're the most irresponsible, you know the least amount in your life, and you're supposed to make these the biggest decisions of your life when you're the least prepared. I remember always saying that I'm the least prepared I've ever been, and I have to make the biggest decisions of my life. And I had friends that be like, I know what my goal is, but I don't know the steps. And I was like, I don't know steps or goals. Like, what is the next thing? In front of me. How do you guys know these things? And honestly, like the business sector, just getting a job and doing a job that you can do or that you are good at, even if you don't like it is, it's a step. And so it's like, well, I don't know what step to take, so I just took that step and kept taking steps until I'm down. You know, this is where midlife crisis come from. You're down all of these steps, and you still don't know what your goal is. You don't know where you're going, but you know you've taken these steps. You don't know what the next step is, but you're sure it'll pop up at some point. But at least you can go on vacation, you know, like it's just a very stumbling through life, way of living. And that's really what I've done,

15:38  
as have I you know, I was listening to your podcast again, Episode Eight of misinformed, season one, dog catchers and dream jobs. I just love the title so much. And Beth, I could so relate to you, because it was you who said you were thinking about you had a dream of becoming a jazz singer. Oh, yeah, I wanted to be right. I wanted to be a jazz singer in college, yeah,

16:02  
training me to be an opera singer. And I was like, I'm really good at this. It's one of those, everyone around me thinks I'm really good at this. Should I do it? And then, like, ah, that one's kind of hard. I don't know that I can do opera my whole life, but I really do enjoy people being happy with me. Yeah, it's hard to say no,

16:19  
but I could still relate to

16:21  
that. I would love to be a singer. Nothing would bring me greater joy than to be on stage, and I didn't get any of the singing chops. So the

16:29  
irony of Sarah and I's existence is just rich, because she loves performing, being in front of people, get a room going, or I would really prefer to be in the corner, but I actually can do well on the stage. So she

16:41  
has pipes. Jamie, now that I know that you wanted to be a jazz singer, you're gonna have to sing for me

16:47  
sometime. So SJ, you have this beautiful youthful glow about you today, and I just can't help wonder if that's because you got some skin treatments while you were on a business trip, as you know, American business Barbie in South Korea, could we, could we talk about that, please? Could we talk about, would love to so I am glowing it actually I ended up getting so I went to South Korea, Seoul, specifically where I was born. I was born, you were born? Yeah, I didn't know you were born in Seoul. Yeah, that's my birth city.

17:24  
It's amazing. It's incredible. Way

17:26  
cooler than us, for sure. But I had very little to do with Sj, going to South Korea. I want to hear, I want, I want SG to tell her story.

17:34  
Yeah. So I got a new job. It's the company started in Seoul, South Korea. Most of my team is in Seoul, so they invited me out for a like, kind of like an onboarding, like kickoff. It was one of the scariest things I've ever done. Whenever I got back, I called Beth and I said, I'm one of the bravest people I know, which is my way of saying that was so scary. But I did it, but it was an incredible experience. I spent a lot of time working so I didn't get to explore. Didn't get to explore quite as much as I wanted, but I did make it to a K beauty store called Olive Young and bought everything basically like I was just like, grabbing stuff off the shelves. I gave Beth, some sons, some Korean SPF yesterday, wearing it now. Yeah, it's the glow, and that's where my glow is coming from. Is all my Korean skincare. I didn't get a facial treatment. I got a scalp treatment. What? Yes, I know, right? They it was like an hour and a half of them like cleaning my scalp, because us Westerners don't, apparently, clean our scalp correctly. And she, like, took these really close up pictures of my scalp, and then she cleaned the dickens out of it, and then took them again, and it looked totally different. Apparently we have, like, harder water. It was fascinating. It was amazing. But I also stayed in the gang district, where all the plastic surgery offices are, so I got to see that whole, like, societal movement. It was so interesting. Everybody in my hotel had some kind of bandage on their face. And I was like, Oh, wow, but yeah, it was such a cool. Like, now I'm recommending people go to South Korea, having never been to any other Asian country. I'm like, I think it's the best one.

19:16  
I really didn't pay you to say

19:17  
that. Really, no, they were, they were so everybody was so receptive of because I've been to other countries where, like, they're kind of annoyed that you're not speaking their language. Everybody was so kind everybody. There wasn't a single person who was, like, annoyed with my, like, very broken Korean, hello. And that was, it was just so delightful in that way, because I'd been to Iceland before, and they would just stare at me, like, why aren't you speaking? Why aren't you speaking Iceland? Ish to me, but yeah, it was, it was really good. I'm so jet lag was rough. I did survived, and I made it there, and I made it back, and no one died. And that's what's important. That's

19:53  
what's most important. We all survived

19:56  
kind of a weird, scary bar to have, but I'm glad you. I wish.

20:00  
So nervous, you guys, I was I had to fly over an ocean, I had to get on a bus, I had to get in a hotel,

20:06  
and you didn't know any of the language, like all of the letters are different symbols. So I was very impressed with that. There's a lot of English everywhere, and some international flights before, but always to countries that are English adjacent. You did the real deal you did, the real traveling

20:22  
I did. And it's kind of strange as a Korean American person, because I left Korea when I was very young. It was Christmas, 1989 so you can do the math, and Taylor Swift had just been born, exactly, and the country has evolved and developed so rapidly. You know, the Korea that I have, the soul that I remember, does not exist, and it just exists in my imagination, because it's been completely redeveloped, you know, remade and connected with high speed internet and all of that. You know, they have the fastest, high speed internet, I read somewhere, and they also have the highest rate of plastic surgery, unhappy statistics. But yeah, it's like, it's like, I'm listening. It's different. Yeah, like she's talking about a foreign country. They still speak the same language that I know, but it's a completely different world.

21:17  
On the note, of the plastic surgery thing, I've always been kind of interested in why people from South Korea tend to do that at a higher rate. And I spoke with one of my co workers, actually, and I was like, hey, like, tell me about what it's like to raise kids here, like we were just sitting around talking. And the way he shared it was that it's such a well educated country that by the time you graduate high school, the next way to be competitive, because everyone is so well educated, is that being beautiful is now your competitive advantage? Oh, my God, yes. And so like, for high school, high schoolers, like, graduation presents are cosmetic surgery so they can stand out and like that is, it's not because I think some people are like, Oh, it's just vanity. Like, everybody wants to be beautiful. Like, in a lot of cases, it's parents thinking this is the best way they can set their kids up for, like, a good life, which is, it's very similar to the American experience of, like, we do things to try to set our kids up for good lives. And so that's why I heard about it. Yeah, they're just like, well, we'll just fix your face. And so everyone's walking paid. We can improve, yes. And so just very interesting to come from, like, a place of competition and a place of trying to compete. And I was like, I can relate to that a lot, and I can see that, like, it just it made a lot of sense to me as somebody who also feels like we're supposed to compete always in life. So it was very refreshing to kind of hear that, especially from a man talking about, like, what it's like for him to see women everywhere and he's got daughters and like, what his plan is. So very interesting. There's, you can go to different countries and still find the same, like, toxic. Like toxic behaviors, yeah,

22:45  
because as soon as you said that, I My first thought was that sounds dystopic.

22:51  
It does carry the capital

22:52  
from Hunger Games,

22:54  
right? Like, where, I mean, I it sounds like late stage capitalism, toxicity, right? I mean, like, anyways, anyways.

23:06  
Well, the closest I'm going to get to Korea is eating my favorite food truck, smoke and soul. It's the best Kansas City Barbecue. So I'm going to put a little plug there. If you're in the Kansas City area, check out smoke and soul. They combine soul food with barbecue, and it's just delightful. Wait, are we talking s, o, u l, soul food? No, it's s, it's E, Korea, Soul s, e, o, u l, yeah. So my close friend is Korean, and her husband is from the Midwest, and so they combined forces, and so you're getting, like, kimchi on with barbecue. Oh,

23:41  
wow. I recently started attending a Zen Buddhist temple here in New York City, and I've become a very active member. And every Saturday we do some like meditation, and then there is lunch. And the other week, somebody had brought pizza. And of course, everyone was putting, you know, red, spicy kimchi right onto the pizza, and folding it and putting in their mouths like it was just, you know, new American burrito

24:12  
with kimchi in it. I

24:14  
think we just came up with a business idea, new American burrito, and it's pizza with kimchi,

24:19  
pizza, Soul

24:20  
soul and pizza,

24:22  
yeah, I

24:24  
love it. They're like, I wreck, I see this, and I will make it my own.

24:28  
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I see it, and I will make it my I feel like that kind of like, I know I'm taking a hard pivot to our conversation, but I think that is, like, what really needs to happen in like, many people's careers, like, we need to see it and be able to make it our own, especially with everything going on with AI and and, you know, the economy and everything like, I think making it your own is the secret sauce. It's the kimchi on the pizza. It's the Yes. Magic pixie dust, you know. And I think, tying back to what you were talking about Beth, it's like, how do we make it our own? How do we align what genuinely feels like joy, what genuinely feels like heart led to how we, you know, make a living. And as for SJ, me, she's sort of like the living Barbie that amplifies it, I mean, embodies that principle. So. SJ, maybe you can walk us through a bit of your journey, like, what does it mean to be a business Barbie like you?

25:34  
Yes, if I was a Barbie, what would what accessories would I come with? Is that your question? Yeah, I think about this a lot because I've I've been doing my own thing. I've been doing things my own way for so long I forget that it is my own way, and that's not just the way everybody's doing it. And one of those examples being, I've worked from home since 2015 Wow. Yeah, like so in that I was 23 when I did that, I left my, like, very typical corporate job where I was very high level for very young and because I did it, I didn't know, I didn't understand how I fit into things, and that bugged me, like a lack of clarity was just unacceptable for me, even at 23 and I remember telling somebody Like, I'm working hard. I don't know what I'm doing this for. I refuse to keep doing this. It's making me miserable. So I left and started. When you were remember who said it the other day? I think was my husband was saying, you have done what a lot of people are scared to do, which is to I became an IC in an IC being individual contributor. I sorry, I hate acronyms, but I became an executer on all of the things that I wanted to be a leader on, because my first role was essentially managing a team of like five or six people, and they were creative. So I managed a graphic designer, I managed a content creator, I managed a videographer, I managed a social media person, and I could, like, help lead them, but I couldn't do any of their jobs, and that young in my career, nobody really believed that I could take that to a different company. They were like, we don't understand how you've gotten where you're at. We're going to kind of ignore you. So I said, I want to be able to do all the things that I'm managing. So I started picking up, like, kind of like collecting Pokemon, of little life skills, like little, little career skills. So I got into writing, I got into graphic design, I got into web development, got into public speaking, and I spent a lot of time, from my home, doing those things, and that has made my life feel very different than most, because I have been like business Barbie, but from my very comfortable office in my very comfortable home, and that you've been I'm realizing, Yeah, I was homeschooled growing up, homes and licenses Barbie. So whenever, like, people had to, you know, go home during covid, I was like, Oh, I've been here. This has already been my thing. And when I started applying for this job, that's a lot of my team is in Seoul, South Korea. They're like, Can you handle the time change? And I was like, I used to work with people that lived in Australia, like, this is fine. And so, like, my version of, like, corporate Barbie Girl. Barbie has been very different, but I forget that because it feels so right to me. But spending that one week in an office was miserable. I will have to say, I didn't have my usual desk. I like to walk on my treadmill. I didn't have access to all my things, and it was really hard for me. So my business Barbie has been very much like, kind of refusing to accept that anything has to be done a certain way, and just being like, but I want it to feel good for me. Whenever I last left my last job, one of my co workers was very nervous for me that I would not find another job, because he's like, you live in Missouri, like the fact that you had a job out of San Francisco was kind of, you know, kind of an anomaly. Anyway. He's like, I was worried you would not find another job. And I was like, jokes on you. I found one that was even more global. So I'm very much have kind of just lived by, like, the rules aren't for me, which makes me and Beth relationship very spicy. I think

28:58  
on your wedding day, the motto of the day was nothing matters. No, no, no, we get to make up our rules. It wasn't nothing. Rules don't matter. The Rules don't matter because she very much was doing her own thing, and is going through a season where that was hard for you, and you've really had to grow in that, and you have just expounded, just exploded in your life with rules don't matter. Sarah s Joe, SJ, whatever you call yourself, is doing it her way well. And when I found my way back to Jamie, it was basically like, I feel like I'd kind of lost touch with that.

29:30  
And I had been in a environment for a while where I was trying to be liked, and I had kind of expanded beyond my comfort zone so many times I'd kind of forgotten, like, who I was when I started, and so when I part of the reason I picked Jamie as because Jamie as my executive coach, because there are lots out there, was her whole thing. There was some somewhere on her website, it was like, you're tired of, like pretending to be somebody else, or like you just, you want to feel like you. Your voice matters without, like, losing sight of who you are. I was like, yes, like, I don't even know who I am anymore, besides somebody who's just trying to be liked very, very hard and fun fact, trying to be liked doesn't make you very likable. And so when I joined Jamie, I was just like, I don't even know who I am. And it didn't take her long to be like, what this you know, I'm she noticed she called out a lot of misalignments pretty early for me, she's like, you know, it sounds like you're not, you're not somebody who's been scared, but you feel quite scared now, and you're not somebody who, you know, cares what people think, but you're really caring people think here. And it was a lot of like finding my way back to my roots, of doing things differently and being comfortable with that, and that's kind of how I've arrived at my like, very strange business Barbie,

30:44  
objectively, like, as your sister, watching you go through this, I feel like an executive coach you would think would make a business Barbie stronger, and I don't know, a little bit more intense, like you're really beefing up somehow, but I feel like it's made you softer And, like, more at peace with yourself, and in that you've been stronger. So like you You seem less anxious, and like you're trying to fill boxes with stuff you don't know how to find, as opposed to you feel more settled. I feel like you've been more settled in who you are, which was not what I thought would come from executive coaching. So that was very cool to watch happen.

31:20  
A lot of executive coach, a lot of executive coach say, do more. They're like, do more. Make better, to do lists. And Jamie doesn't do that. Now we're just going to talk about how great Jamie is. Jamie. Jamie doesn't do that. Jamie doesn't tell you, do more, be more, which is what women get. A lot a lot of our self help books are, do more, be more. And I was so tired, and Jamie said in the number of times Jamie has said, I'm not going to fight with you, which I love, because I love fighting. I'm not going to fight with you. Or, like, let's just try talking slower, which no one has ever successfully gotten me to do that before. Like, she literally was like, Can you just say those words? And then the last one being like, well, let's just take a minute and feel it in our bodies. And those like those are not the things I think people expect to hear from an executive coach, but it is. It's like trying to find that inner knowing, that inner peace, lowering the frantic energy, and from that comes a lot more clarity, like we could spend three hours talking through tactics and strategies, but what Jamie and I usually do in about 30 minutes is just notice the space between my wrist and my elbow.

32:27  
This is a real thing that we do. Yes, this is a technique out of open focused brain written by Dr les FeNi. So there's science behind it. So much science, and I love that he also was a Zen Buddhist. So it was sort of rooted in this ancient tradition of meditation, mindfulness. And what it does is it changes your state of brain. So you go from high frequency beta waves in your brain, which is like that, very like, like, hectic state of mind, to synchronous alpha waves, which is associated with creative with a calm, creative state of mind, which Beth is an expert of because she's also a toy expert, I mean, and I think the best toys would probably bring about that sort of present but joyful, engaged state of mind. So that's, that's what we do. So when, yeah, yeah,

33:22  
yeah. I think tech is that, does that fall under the hypnosis part of

33:25  
your Yes, yes, something that we learned in hypnosis training, yes.

33:29  
Another thing I liked about Jamie is she offered, like, included hypnosis, which I think some people were like, what is that? And I was like, it's going to be amazing. But she has me, like, notice spaces on my body. And by the time I come out of that, she goes, Well, like, what do you know? And I will tell her, I don't know if this is everyone's experience, but just getting me to slow down and access those waves, I'll be like, I know exactly what I need to do. And I'll tell her, and then she'll be like, great, what's your first step? And then we'll figure out my step, and then we move on like that. The number of times that's been our session has been, like, frantic, fear, scared, okay, but what do you know? SJ, and she just got on your amygdala. She's saying, Mom, take a break. Amygdala, let the rest of the brain have a say in something here. Yeah. And she stops all of it. She's like, she slows it all down. She holds the space i She walks me through something that I hate doing on my own. Like, I'm like, I'm like, vibrating with energy, and she slows me down, and I find the solution. And then usually we do go through some kind of like, Oh, I know how to help you do that thing, because I have done this with another client. Or like, here's some hot tips. Or like, Can I suggest that you do this instead of that? Like, we usually come out with some kind of an action plan, but it's not a usual session that I think people would expect from a coach where you're like, What should I do? And they're like, here's your plan, and it involves, like, you know, doing just doing more, it's usually quite a bit less. Like, one of my favorite examples is I wanted to give a presentation, and I wanted it to be the best presentation that's ever been presented with all this data and all this stuff. And Jamie was like, what. Well, what problem are you solving? And I was like, all of them. She was like, whose problems are you solving? Like, what problems do they have? And ended up turning into, like, I talked, ended up making a plan to talk to two people, and I ended up making a very collaborative presentation that was very like, at the end, my boss was like, Oh my gosh. Like, that's not at all what I expected, but it was what we needed. And so like that, that pause for clarity is very uncomfortable, I think, specifically for women, because we never had like we're not supposed to stop,

35:29  
or we feel like we have to fight for our voice to be heard. Yeah, and

35:33  
it was very much like, give your own voice space. So that's my like part of a big part of that. Beth, when you say, like, I see more calm, it's because I've spent a lot more time in that calm state instead of just trying to do and be in schedule. And, you know, I just feel like every bit of advice is like, hire a cleaner and make better to do lists and get up earlier. And Jamie's like, Screw all of that

35:58  
little gem inside of you. Do you see the gym? And you're like, I don't see the gym. I'm too busy looking at this. There's a gym inside. You look, I found it. It's like, Jamie can see that? And so she's like, draw your attention to the gym. What's inside of Sarah? And then it comes out, and it's beautiful.

36:14  
She does. Beth, were you in our sessions?

36:20  
Oh, can I tell, can I tell the story of how Jamie made me cry at our last session? Beth, I don't think I've told you this, and I might cry again. I asked for permission, not waiting for the response. I She we've been we've been dealing with the fact that I feel this like crushing pressure of ambition in myself, and how to, like, manage that and nurture it, and also, like, not be crushed by it. And we were trying to create visuals for it. And she was like, what does it look like? And she's trying to help me, like, figure out, like, what it would look like if I gathered up these parts of me and put them in a basket. And she was like, What's it feel like? And I was like, it feels heavy and like, it's got a lot of forward motion, and it's pushing me and like, but I tend to use, like, more negative words when I talk about my ambition. And she was like, does it feel like a little red go kart? And because she had seen, oh, my goodness, she had seen that I bought my son's a little red go kart when I got my new job, and I was like, I'm a little red go kart straight

37:21  
to the heart. Oh, was

37:23  
like, did you do that on purpose? Jamie grabbed her

37:26  
arrow from her quiver and just shot it straight to the heart. She did. She

37:30  
helped me, like, kind of reframe my ambition, which in our, like, evangelical, very Christian upbringing, like girls and women don't have, aren't supposed to have, that it's kind of an embarrassing thing, and to reframe it as something fun and pretty and shiny and fast and not something scary and bad, was just that was one of our, like, big moments.

37:54  
I just have gratitude, because every time you talk about this Jamie, I'm like, Who is this Jamie?

38:00  
She does free consultancy. If you only spend an hour with her, she's really great. She won't pressure you.

38:07  
And I just want to say I have, like, tremendous respect for both of you and any woman, any woman who has a job and has children, any mother, because I'm, I am the second daughter of a single mom, you know, in America who still speaks broken English. She's an immigrant, and, yeah, I just taught her how to use Chachi PT to translate things from English to Korean so she doesn't have to rely on other people. It is a is a game changing, life changing. But I grew up, you know, a little bit bad on my mom, because she was working so much. But then I got into the working world, and my respect just just exponentially grew, because now I realize, holy shit, she was dealing with so much, right, paying the bills, rent, dealing with, like, three kids and making money, and dealing with, you know, the workplace politics or whatever. I mean, I'm like, I have just infinite, just endless amount of respect for any working mother. I'm not a mother myself. And I know Beth and SJ, you both are mothers. So I'm curious, do you want to, do you want to tell us a little bit about, you know, yes, maybe I'm tugging at your heart strings a little bit here. But what does it mean to be a provider? What does it mean to be a woman, a working mother, and also somebody who

39:35  
provides? Sarah is going to probably have a strong answer for this, because she is the main provider in their home. I am supplementary in my home, still needed. We were still provided. I hate it when you say supplementary. I hate it when you say that, because I know that Beth, because you can't not have a job, and that doesn't make it supplementary. It makes it essential. That's true. Thankful for my I'm so thankful for my husband. Job, not because he's a man and he makes money for me, but because he's worked really hard, and I met him when he was working at a bank in a grocery store, and so I see him as a person that has worked really hard, and I'm so proud of him that he really does work hard to keep getting higher and higher jobs, whatever, so he's put in the work. So it's not just because he's a dude, it's because he's a hard worker. But for myself, I say supplemental because I'm like, I have the luxury not everybody does to not have to continue to grow my paycheck and grow it and grow it and grow it. And I'm thankful for that. So it comes from a point of gratitude. But I appreciate the protection of like, Hey, I matter. I do matter. We'd have to move if I didn't have a job. I don't want to do that anyway. But for being a mom, I have two daughters. So Sarah's going to have the two sons version of this. I have the two daughters version of this. And I was raised not knowing that I had, you know, fire inside my my voice. And I want to raise my daughters to believe that they can breathe fire. And we joke that sometimes that sometimes that means the fire is going to come at me, but that's okay. We will learn how to navigate that and manage it and them. Seeing me work I feel like is very important, seeing me help people, seeing me dislike my co workers, seeing me struggle to find an answer, seeing me give my husband career advice, seeing me as a fully functioning human is so important. They also see me playing toys with them, but they've also they've seen me do all of these things, and I want that for them, because they their biggest role model right now in their life, other than me, as their teachers. And they want to be teachers when they grow up. And I love that for them, but I know that's not always going to be the case. That's just who they have the best experiences with, and they've seen me sitting at a desk typing. And so one of my daughters really wants to sit at a desk typing. She actually really just wants to figure out how to hack into computers, and that's a whole other concern, but them seeing me work hard in a variety of ways, although my resume looks to me like a hodgepodge of things it's provided. My daughter's seeing me do so many different things and knowing also that they're not stuck in one career. They can sit at a computer and push buttons as their job, or they can go sit in a room and talk with people. Or they can stand in front of people and talk with them. They can travel to different countries. It can look like whatever they want it to. So when you ask them what they want to do, they usually provide two answers. I want to do this. And I want to do this because we've really emphasized how important it is that you're not just going to grow up and be be a thing. You might be that thing and also do this other thing, or turn this into something else. So lots of conversations, but that for me, has been the provision that I provided other than monetary I also am providing them and my best a role model, somebody that they can grow and learn from,

42:46  
lovely. I love it. I was just thinking about how if they do want to become business Barbies or any kind of, you know, female whatever. Sorry, I can't think of the better analogy here. But they can have endless outfits. They can have endless amount of, you know, choices, so they can be this and that. I love that. Thank you so much. What about you? SJ,

43:08  
um, my boys are still little and don't understand what I do. All they know is that I go into work and in my office, and it's my favorite thing is they think their dad's job is the coolest, because He's the mayor, but it's, like, mostly a volunteer position. We love it, we value it, but like, that's not where our money's coming from. But like, that's the job they see. That's so cool. And I can't wait for the day when they look back and they're like, Oh, Mom was making all of the money. Like, because they're they're their little brains can't do it. But I really love that my sons get to see me being like a nurturing, fun mom who also has to go to meetings, and they also see their dad being like a whole person who's doing dishes and wiping their butts, and then he's also going to meetings, and seeing how like hard work can be enjoyable. One thing I've loved about becoming a mom, because I worked pre mom post mom, and I became a more efficient worker when I had kids. Like, I know people say, like, Oh, you have kids, like, you're gonna have less time for work. No, no, no, I am not going to dick around with anything that's non essential, because I want to get back to my kids. Like, when you don't have kids, there's just, there's a little extra space that you can expand. And when you have kids and you want to get back to them, which that's important if you want to them, sometimes you want to get away from them as much as you want to get back to them. Yes, just a little confusing, but just as important to be like, Oh my god. I'm so happy to be at my desk. I love working. Okay, I gotta go. No. I love I used to tell cool, like a marker for me, is, if I'm doing well in life, is I am just excited to start my day at work as I am to end my day at work. That means that I'm excited for my work, but I'm also excited to be done with it, but I don't mess around with like, late night meetings, just because, because I'd rather be with my kids and so all of that has been really fun for me to see them, like, try to process what it is that I'm doing. Like, I can't wait till they're older and they can kind of share back to me what on earth they thought I was doing. Because I think. There was one day John saw me typing, and he goes, Are you playing it like the piano? And I was like, it does kind of look like that. And then one day, I did agree song. One day he goes, Mom, did you get all the buttons? And I was like, so he's trying to figure it out, like, what it is that I'm doing, and it's very cute. So it's been for me, though, it's just been very much like, I just want my sons to see people in all their capacities, all of their doctors are women. They've got two aunts that are doctors, so like, they're they've got a I almost feel like we're a little bit in Barbie land in my house, because the women are in charge.

45:38  
But it's been fun, and Ken's get to be,

45:42  
I forget what I mean. That was the best in the Barbie Kendrick beach. And in Barbie the movie, Ken had the best song and dance. So I really did.

45:54  
He really undervalued. I will say, my husband has a I am a Kenneth shirt. He does or hat. He has a hat that says I am Ken. F, love it.

46:04  
Thank you so much for coming on to risky conversations. Is there anything else that we haven't yet addressed that you want listeners to know, either about misinformed or anything else. Hmm.

46:25  
I mean, I can't think of it. We'll, we'll fill Yes, the conversation. We'll just keep talking. But I can't think of anything,

46:33  
no. I mean, I more than anything, if there's, I mean, I just want people to as they're listening to this, one of the best things you can do as a woman is to seek other women's guidance, especially women that know more than you. Like self help. Books are great, podcasts are great, but there is something about sitting in front of another person who's looking at you that makes a big difference in your life, and that's why, like, sisters are really great, but also executive coaches and, you know, tribes and healers and all that. I think that used to be more baked into our society, and it's not now. Now we have to kind of seek it out. But I think that's why podcasts like this and podcasts like misinformed are quite healing. It's because it makes us feel like we're not quite just alone taking in information, but if at any point in time you're just trying to get in front of another woman,

47:17  
yeah, absolutely feeling like you've got a sisterhood, even if you don't actually have biological sisters, it means nothing. Just be with other women or people that can see the gym inside of you or can cheer you on or whatever

47:31  
make you cry about a little red go kart

47:35  
that's in the basket. Yeah. So if anyone wants to book a free consultation with me, just come on over to Jamie Lee coach.com/apply you can read all the details I have sliding scale offers, and you could just book a free consultation right there. Where can people go to download misinformed

47:56  
right now it's available on Apple podcasts and Spotify podcasts. At some point I need to do something else with it.

48:02  
We need to have our own Tiktok or Instagram or something piggybacking off of Sarah's.

48:08  
The marketer in me is cringing because I've not done the marketing, but I've truly just been focused on, like, enjoying the process of it all. So yeah, for right now, just check out Apple podcasts and Spotify podcasts for misinformed, M, i, s, s, I and then informed.

48:25  
I didn't need to

48:27  
do all that spelled incorrectly. We're a little we're either misinformed about something or a little misinformed. So

48:33  
that's okay. I will link to all of that in the show notes. And can I add your Instagram or your if you have, like, can I add some social

48:45  
in there to add? Yeah, you can add in the links. I'll send it to you.

48:49  
Excellent. Thank you. We'll talk soon.

48:53  
Bye, Jamie you. Jamie, you.