Jamie Lee  0:00  
Jamie Lee, welcome to risky conversations, and why? Because everything that's worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. My name is Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach for smart women who really don't like office politics, and I help them get promoted and better paid. And today I have my former next door neighbor. I have a former Indiana resident, but now she lives in New York City, and Rachel, Rachel Eckles is not just a really great friend. She's a multi hyphenate. She is a lawyer, author and a coach, so I'm really excited to have you on the podcast again. Rachel, welcome back.

Speaker 1  0:49  
Thank you. I'm excited to be here. I wish you still lived across the hall, but this will have to do.

Jamie Lee  0:57  
Rachel is my perimenopause buddy, and I think every woman who is over 35 should have a Rachel in their lives, a perimenopause buddy who sends her the funniest reels, the latest bits and information, useful tips about how to navigate perimenopause. So thank you, Rachel for letting me know about the Phenom that is Mary Claire haber MD, on Tiktok and Instagram.

Speaker 1  1:26  
Absolutely, she's an amazing resource, isn't she?

Jamie Lee  1:30  
Yes, yes, and you were the one who, like, helped me really connect the dot. Like, a couple of years ago, we were walking down the street. We were going to a networking event together. We're going to this really fancy, fabulous woman's house. And she said, Rachel, said, You turned to me and you said, you know, when you're in your 40s, you have to eat a lot more protein. And now I do, and now I do, and now I know why it's important. Thank

Unknown Speaker  1:58  
you Absolutely. I'm glad I could help.

Jamie Lee  2:01  
Yeah, and you've shared so many other great resources with me, and I recently went on menopause hormone therapy, and has been a life changing experience. I I think I've been so good at masking my perimenopause symptoms that like people like, what? You're perimenopausal, what? And plus, you know, I guess I kind of look young for my age, but as soon as I went on the estrogen patch, and that was just like a month ago, I was like, Whoa, right, this is what it's like to feel like myself again. You know? It's like, oh, right, I don't have to have constant insomnia and persistent headaches and anxiety and palpitations and feel like, you know, like the most mundane thing is the hardest thing. I'm like, oh, you know, this is it. I have energy. I have energy to do things. So it's been such a game changer for me, and I'm curious, since you have actually done research on women menopause when you were working in the life sciences field, what do you think that more of us millennial women should know about perimenopause?

Speaker 1  3:19  
First of all, I should note, I'm not a physician. Just for those listening, I have a long history in the pharmaceutical industry, and worked at several companies that have women's health portfolios, so I spent a lot of time with some of the world's experts on women's health. And I think there's a few things that women should know. You don't have to suffer as much as we're all suffering in this age. So there are plenty of technologies for virtually any woman who is over 40, if she's experiencing menopause symptoms, to be able to manage it. So there is a menopause society that actually has a, I'm sorry, a directory of physicians who are recertified every year in menopause. It's on menopause.org and if you're going to see someone, I would recommend going there. We all have our OB GYN that we see once a year, hopefully. And they may not be trained in the latest data. They have a fear, and we can talk more about it, you know, at another time, but the Women's Health Initiative really set off this chain of events, and it's why many of us watched our mothers and grandmothers suffer through menopause. Because the whi study essentially gutted all menopause therapy for women for a decade plus. So physicians were really reticent to prescribe any sort of hormone, and women were just told to suffer. So it was like, lose some weight, take an antidepressant, you just have anxiety, all the things that women are typically pushed around by the medical industry in general and. It just breaks my heart. So I've just tried to really share as much as I know with everyone I know, because empowered women, empower women, right? And we don't have to suffer for this. Our menopause doesn't have to look like our mother's experiences and more. So this issue is so I'm so passionate about this, because I don't think people think about it like this. And I was with one of the premier menopause experts in the world. Spent a lot of time with her when I was working at Pfizer many years ago. She's still working. I think she might be in her 80s or 90s. She works at NYU, she's faculty and is a women's health expert. And to me, Lila nachtigal, Dr, Lila nachtigal, and she's actually involved with electro health, which I know you've utilized. I'm not sure if she was the founder, but she's definitely involved. I saw it on their website. She was such an incredible influence on me, because I had her host this event about menopause, and she gave this really compelling speech about how women were never supposed to, not to live without menopause, or, I'm sorry, without estrogen. So if you think about evolution, our life expectancy used to be, you know, childhood, teenage years. Become a mother, kind of die very soon after that. You might be, you know, a grandmother for a short time, but life expectancy was so much shorter, and we were never meant to live without the hormone. So evolution takes about a million years. So she's always said, when I've heard her speak, that there will be a day when women don't stop, essentially, manufacturing producing estrogen in their bodies. So we have this cliff that happens in our 40s and 50s as women, and if you're not with the right physician, you're going to be pushed off onto either some other pharmaceutical that's not really addressing the fact that you don't have as much estrogen as you used to, or you're just going to be told to suffer. And if you think about how systemic estrogen is, and that's what I learned from resources like Doctor Mary Claire haver, it doesn't just affect, you know, your periods. It affects your joints, your bone density, your nutrition, the way your organs function, your brain, the brain fog is a huge issue. So you know, I know your audience are professional women, if you think about everything Women are facing as middle management or executives in the workplace in their 40s and 50s, and then you pile on this disadvantage they have from men, because men's bodies aren't stopping to produce one of the most critical hormones that they need to survive. Essentially, it's it really adds this layered complexity that doesn't need to be there. So if anybody listening is suffering, I really encourage you to look@menopause.org There are now programs that do completely virtual event, virtual treatment sessions, and just educate yourself. And don't take I think we, all you know, go to the women in our families that have been through this. They didn't have the same experience or opportunities that we have, and we don't have to suffer. So use the resources that are available to you. Don't listen to someone tell you that hormone therapy isn't right for you. If you look on Dr Mary Claire havers resources or Dr Rachel Rubin is another really good resource that I've enjoyed. And there are many, many others popping up now. They are very clear that virtually every woman can take some sort of estrogen therapy. There are, again, I'm not a physician, but I know that there are pre existing conditions, such as an estrogen receptor breast cancer that can affect the type of estrogen. But there's, generally speaking, something for everyone, and there is just no reason this day and age to suffer as much as we are.

Jamie Lee  9:01  
Thank you. That's literally what I just said to another girlfriend of mine who is going through the change, and she's having hot flashes, and she told me, Oh, you know, you don't need estrogen. It's for vanity. You could get cancer. And that's what the whi study that Rachel just referred to, that came out in 2002 which got, you know, pushed out to the press before a peer review. So it wasn't even like vetted information, but one statistic got misread, and everyone you know around the media had this hoopla saying that, Oh, you you have increased risk of breast cancer. And I learned from reading books like Dr Mary Claire havers new menopause and Lisa Moscone menopause brain that having dense breasts, which I do a lot of Asian women do, like that, puts you at a higher risk of breast cancer than taking estrogen. That's identical to the. One that your body had been making. And I remember when you first shared something from dr, dr, Mary haver. And I'm like, I was kind of like rolling my eyes at it, you know, initially, but now I'm like, Oh my gosh. Everything she says is, like, gospel is, is like, wow, she's finally addressing the voices of women who feel gaslit by the system. I too. I went to I went to the ER, I went to the urgent care, I went to the cardiologist, I went to urologist, and because of my menopause symptoms, and they were all like giving me the wrong treatment. They were giving me antibiotics or telling me that it's in my head, or take antidepressants or take it easy. It wasn't until I went to Electra health and Rachel, I think you and I, we share that commonality. We went to Electra health, tele health service, and I was able to get my hormone replacement therapy prescribed under insurance. And I think that affordability is also a huge factor, because there's so many great doctors out there and they don't take insurance, so it becomes estrogen replacement therapy becomes inaccessible. But anyways, I'm ranting. I feel so passionate about this. Thank you, Rachel, for leading the way. I appreciate you. And you know, I think that's, that's the thing you know, so many women, so many smart, brilliant women who have talents and gifts, you know, just as you do Rachel and just as your your characters in your novels do, right? But real women, like we often feel gaslit by the system, whether that is doctors who are misinformed and won't prescribe hormone replacement therapy, or you go to the workplace and you're doing your job, you're doing it better than, you know, Chad in the next cubicle, or, you know, boring Steve, but you get told that, oh, somehow you lack executive presence, you know, or somehow you need to, you know, change up your communication style, right? That's something that I hear all the time from my clients. And I wonder if you see because you are an ambitious, high functioning, multi hy, finite entrepreneur. I wonder if you see a connection between you know, your work, as a creative entrepreneur, as an as a novelist, and the conversations that we've been having about women's health. What? What is the connection that you see?

Speaker 1  12:33  
I wanted to make an aspirational, messy, complex woman who was at the height of her career, but also experiencing a lot of the same or relatable things that other women are difficult relationships, you know, abusive relationships, discrimination in the workplace. You know, being dismissed because you're just a little woman, and what could you possibly know about running a big business? That sort of dismissiveness. I think if you don't have a very strong, confident personality, it can be very, very discouraging. And I think what you're doing, and so many other women are doing, to coach females in the workplace through this time, especially in this age group, it's such a critical time where you see workplaces that aren't talking about menopause or are just starting to talk about it, and you know women are experiencing throughout the course of their careers, so many challenges that men aren't which which could be with their cycle. I know I can't even count on two hands. How many women I know that say I get horrible migraines during my cycle, and I have to sit in the dark with no noise for days. And if you're not in a workplace that allows you the flexibility to take some time off when you need it, that can be really discouraging. Then fast forward to menopause. I was actually looking at the numbers, and we'll, I think we'll talk a bit about this later, but I've been kind of obsessed with this idea that we have 4000 an average of 4000 weeks, you know, alive, the average lifespan equates to about 4000 weeks on Earth to fulfill our life purpose, To, you know, experience all the joys and growth opportunities we want to as humans. And if you break out the age, you spend almost as much or more time in menopause and post menopause as you spend pre so it is. You know, how often do we talk about child birth and raising children, that's a much smaller I'm sorry. Raising children is obviously a lifelong thing once you become a mother, but I think the focus in women's health is always on the childbearing years, and if you look at all of the changes that happen in your 40s and 50s and beyond, that's where we need to be focusing all of the. Systemic changes, all of the risk factors that go up or stay the same depending on your lifestyle choices. Doctor, Vonda Wright is someone else I've been following lately. I think she's an orthopedic surgeon. She has a lot of data around how many her how much higher your risk is for a hip fracture or for, you know, I just had shoulder surgery for frozen shoulder. All of those things are impacted by the decline in estrogen, and I think it translates into your daily life, which is obviously work, is, you know, where you spend the majority of your time, if you are a full time employee somewhere, and even as an entrepreneur, I think you spend more than full time working that's what I'm learning very quickly. But I think that this issue that we we ignore it or brush it under the rug just isn't going to work. And I hope that all people in our age group, the younger women and the older women as well, are much more empowered this day and age to move forward where they can have more honest conversations about it. I've managed a few people in my career that were 10 or 15 years older than me, and I really appreciated their candor and courage to have conversations with me about the brain fog they were experiencing, the headaches. You know, sometimes there are just overwhelming physical symptoms and you cannot get rid of them or manage them. I just wonder if they had had a male supervisor, if they would have felt as open and willing to have that conversation and how it would have been received. So as much as we are educating women, we also have to educate the men in our lives. One of my guy friends who's not married, I was telling him about some of the things that happened during perimenopause, because I was like, these are the women you're dating, like, you need to understand what they're going through. These are the age groups that you're dating. And a few weeks later, I was I literally, like, fell out of my chair laughing, because he's like, Well, I talked to one of our mutual friends who's married. I talked to him, and he told me that that is true, because his wife went through it. And I was like, So listening to a woman in your life wasn't the right move. You had to confirm it with a man about what's happening in women's bodies. It literally made me laugh, like I was laughing until I cried. Because I was like, this is the whole system. So I keep, you know, I do. I'm very active on Instagram at the funny reels, because I think we need to laugh and experience joy as much as possible. But now I send them. I sent him the menopause reels that I sent to like you, and I'm like, can you ask, you know our mutual friend, can you ask him if this is true? Because I just was wondering, does this really happen to women? But men need to be educated as well, and I think it's so critically important that we just all have more open conversations about it. Some of the companies I've been at are fortune, 100 companies, and they do have major efforts to educate all employees about menopause, but I think there's always more we can do with them in in our lives, to have honest conversations about it. And it's not just like the room is too hot. I'm having a hot flash. There's so many other things that go into menopause.

Jamie Lee  18:18  
One of the funniest, some of the funniest reels I've seen lately. You know now my algorithm, my Instagram algorithm, keeps sending me menopause related reels. And some of the funniest and the most viral ones are the men educating other men about perimenopause. And this is something that I learned from following Dr Mary Claire, which is the key difference is that for women, the estrogen drop, the hormone drop that happens in our perimenopausal years, which can be as up to 10 or more years before your you know, the first 12 months of no period, that drop is a lot more Dramatic and chaotic, whereas for men, their drop in testosterone, their key hormone, sex hormone, is steady and gradual, so they don't experience the crazy making process.

Speaker 1  19:13  
Yeah, it's not as dramatic. And also, I mean, I think we should mention this for listeners, it's not just our estrogen levels that change, it's our progesterone and our testosterone as well. So we're navigating all of these changes to our bodies and with very little support, with a lot of belief systems that are outdated. And you know, everybody thinks women don't need testosterone, there are a lot of people educating on why women do need that. And I go back to Vonda, right, because I have heard her on a few podcasts lately. But when she talks about, you know, physical activity and the impact it has on women, if you're not doing any sort of hormonal supplementation, it's it's an uphill battle to reverse. Are slow aging, and if you really are committed to increasing your health span, every longevity doctor I listen to is male or female is now talking about estrogen hormone for women and how they really do need it. But there are also other hormonal issues that if you fall in the range of deficient that you need to, you know, also be watching. So I just, I really want everyone to take away that this should be an empowering, amazing time in our lives. My mom told me many years ago that when she turned 50, it was the most liberating feeling, because she's like, I finally didn't get what anyone thought of me, and when I turned 40, I started noticing, like you just care a lot less about how you show up in the world. I don't mean you know you become cruel or anything. I mean the perception that you're giving off, like people's opinions are less impactful in a negative way, and more of do I like who I'm becoming? Am I living with integrity? Do I feel good about how I show up? And I love that shift. So it should be such a magical time for all of us. We're getting better at our careers. If you have children like they're probably getting a little more independent or out of the house, and you know, you finally know who you are, and if you aren't able to physically navigate, well, it's going to be really hard to show up for other parts of your life purpose and live that out. So I think, you know, 40s and 50s are an ideal time to pursue passion projects that you've always wanted to do because you are getting better at your job, or you are getting better equipped to manage your demands at home. And there is something I believe in everyone that we feel called to do that we may not have time to do until we're in our 40s or 50s. So managing it as well as you can to maximize your health span is really critical for everybody to be able to show up and share their gifts

Jamie Lee  22:08  
well. And since I went on HRT about a month ago, my productivity has just skyrocketed before, you know, I It sounds hyperbolic, but I really did feel like I was half dead. You know, I was. I wasn't getting good sleep. I would wake up and feel achy and sore and just like, cranky. I don't want to do any I really felt like I'm 43 but I felt like I was in my 80s, and I couldn't see or hear all that well either. And then as soon as I went on HRT, I'm like, it was like, the lights got turned back on, and I'm like, Oh, my battery's recharged, and I can go. So, you know, something that you mentioned earlier that was so interesting is this concept that we're basically, you know, living through this evolutionary period for the for the female sex, we're defying death, in a sense, right? We're out living our egg counts, or we're out living the drop of organically produced estrogen in our bodies, right? And all of that is possible through modern science and capitalism, all the things that we have, technology, all of the things that we have. And in terms of defying death, this makes me think about your main character, Celes Donovan. We talked about Celes Donovan in the first interview that we did, and I know you just you're about to release the third series in the trading secrets fictional series, is that right?

Speaker 1  23:42  
Yes. So Celeste Donovan series has three books, my first novel, which I think we spoke about, the first and second one the last time I was on my first novel. My debut novel is called trading secrets. The second one is risky assets, and the third installment is going to be released September 9. So I'm so excited, and I cannot believe I got this over the finish line. This has been such a crazy time in my life when you pile on, you know, the pandemic, of course, was only a few years ago, when you pile on all the life changes that everyone just naturally has over the years, getting this third book out is really a huge accomplishment, and something that I had wanted to do for a really long time. And, you know, I said in 2012 I was going to write a trilogy, and it's, oh, it took me a little longer, but I'm so excited and grateful that I had the space to do it.

Jamie Lee  24:39  
And when I saw risky assets, I'm like, You got to come on risky conversations, yes. And as you mentioned, Celeste is messy. She's complex, you know, she's very powerful, she's very sexy. She's got, you know, the most amazing wardrobe i. Every time I read your series, I you know, like the high fashion envy that it just conjures, it's like it's something and she defies death again and again and again, right? So tell us about this third book, The ongoing, she's like the she's, I don't know is she like, like the Mission Impossible, you know, the hero equivalent in female form. Except she's, not only is she also very fit, good looking and highly skilled in combat arts, but she's also very, very good in

Speaker 1  25:43  
bed. She is the modern woman, epitome of what we all aspire to be. I have to tell you a quick little blurb about my childhood, because I don't know if you know this. So when I was young, I always wanted to be a spy, and I thought it would be the coolest life. I loved watching, like the typical, like kind of boy movies, like the James Bond type movies. And I, I don't know, I mean, life happened, and it became more of a reality of, like, what the requirements are to get into the CIA and what the lifestyle is like that. I was always so fascinated by these people that could lead double lives and could defy death physically or otherwise through manipulation or persuasion. And it was such an escape for me, and so fun, but I was always sort of annoyed that there weren't more female characters like that, because females a lot of times have better tools to navigate some of these situations. So I wanted to create, like, a female Jason Bourne or a female James Bond, and also, you know, sort of overlay that with a Sex in the City vibe, not and just like that. I don't, I didn't watch that, so I can't say that. But, you know this kind of fun city living life when you're very affluent, sort of new money, navigating New York City and living life as a global jet setter and fashion icon, and overlay that to make this really complex character who also has a dark past that she's really tried to move forward from it was so it was so fun and so cathartic to write this character, because I feel like the people who love her love her, and those are my readers, and they are always sending me notes. You know, I invoke Celeste when I was in my annual review and they were trying to say I didn't deserve a raise, so I started thinking like, what would Celeste do? How would she handle this? It's such a it's so fun that we can use fiction to empower women to feel more comfortable standing up for themselves. It's, you know, unfortunately we do need that because we don't see it as much in our daily lives, but I wanted to at least create a character who is like, No, I'm not kind of going to sit back and tolerate this. I'm going to take it into my own hands if I need to, because the people I've been relying on aren't really that reliable or effective. So as you see her evolve through the series. You know, I've gotten a lot of criticism, which I think is actually, it's actually kind of funny to me, because if you look at Wolf of Wall Street, nobody went back to the writers of that movie and said, like, these guys are jerks, right? They were. It was sort of assumed that men who are on Wall Street act a certain way, right? Right? And it's been expected and accepted through all of the entertainment we have around Wall Street, that that's how men on Wall Street act. So I've heard feedback, and I you know, it's I believe that you should choose your entertainment, and this is entertainment, right? So if you don't enjoy it, you don't enjoy it, but I love the wall street culture from an outside perspective. I did do securities litigation, and that's what inspired the Celeste Donovan world and her character. But if you look at it from the outside like it's it's almost just comical, right? Of how absurd they are. Many, many years ago, there was the Goldman Sachs elevator Twitter account, which was completely absurd. I don't know if you ever looked at it, and I don't think it's still running, but it was actually an employee, or a former employee, of Goldman Sachs, like, he would just tweet out like things he heard in the elevator, and they were so absurd, right? But it was comical, because it was a man saying it was okay. And when you know, there have been some comments that of things that Celeste thought, and it's like, what was her thoughts? But she still shouldn't be thinking that. And I'm like, she's working in the same culture as you know, the men on Wolf of Wall Street. They were very politically incorrect. They were very crass. So to me, it was, it was really ironic that that. That criticism came up because it's exactly what I was trying to address, that women are held to different standards, even in the same industry, and I wanted her to be able to navigate that and also to evolve. So this was always meant to be a series. The first book is sort of her getting her footing in this world. And the second book is her, you know, existing as an entity in herself. So the cover of the second book is her face, and it's, I actually can show you, but it was intentional, because it was really a more internal look at her self. And she evolved a lot in that book and this third book, blind trust. I love this cover, so it's so beautiful. I did not design it, so that's not me being arrogant. I just think it's so amazing.

Jamie Lee  30:57  
It's okay. You're allowed to brag. You did an amazing thing. I mean, most people don't even get to write writing their first book. I mean, I haven't yet written a book. You've written three. It's huge. It's a beautiful book.

Speaker 1  31:11  
Thank you. Um, but in the third book, it's really putting together, you know, the things she's learned, how she's evolved, and how she's sort of trying to figure out how to thrive in this world where she's had a lot of pain, she's lost a lot of people, and now she has to figure out, like, who am I going to become in this world? And one underpinning throughout the whole series is that she's gotten in the crosshairs with this global crime syndicate that her ex boyfriend, who had stalked her and was abusive for many years, that he was a part of, and they wanted revenge on her for some things that she had done. I won't give any spoilers, and she's really just kind of running away from them, but also trying to address them head on in an empowered way. And of course, it's fiction, so it's very fantastical. You know, I don't know if a one woman show could do some of the things that she does, but that's what it's meant to do. Is just, let's look at the possibility. Let's look at if we did rely on ourselves and we did feel confident that we could manage situations. How would we handle these things?

Jamie Lee  32:24  
So, you know, when I read the advanced copy, thank you so much. Like, the complexity of her character really struck me, because on the outside, just as you said, it's, it's like, Uber fancy. It's, she's hanging out with, she is a billionaire. She's hanging out with billionaires globe setting, the wealth and the fashion is just out of this world. But inside, right? It's kind of it's not as like comfortable and easy as some people would think. Having access to all that wealth and power would enable you to feel right. She's she's feeling conflicted, she's feeling pressure, she's feeling stressed, she's feeling anxious, you know, she's on the Runge and and I thought that was very poignant, but also truthful to, you know, the experience of high performing women, right? It's almost like a tight rope act that they're doing. And the thing, the thing that I always come back to about Celes Donovan is that she has to trust her own gut again and again, because sometimes she makes the wrong call or she finds out, you know, somebody stabbing her in the back. So it's such a layered character. Tell me more. You told you, told me about where you drew inspiration, but maybe you can tell me more. Do you have, like, real people, like you mentioned, you know, Jason Bourne and Jason, you know what's the other male superhero, James Bond. James Bond, right? But do you have other, like, real life female, whether they're actors or celebrities. Do you have any people in real life that you draw inspiration from?

Speaker 1  34:08  
I loved the recent series The lioness, and as what I have, what I know about the series is that it was based off of a real CIA operative, and she had a very small team. I can't remember the name of their team, but they were essentially assassins, and they navigated this really complex world by finding and recruiting women who were embedded in terrorist organizations. What I loved about Zoe Saldana character? I think the character's name was Joe. And again, I don't know the real life story of this woman, but it does say it was based on a true story. What I loved about Zoe Saldana role is she has a very atypical character. So she is a CIA operative. She's married. To a physician. She has children, and she's gone like six months out of the year, places that she can't tell her kids where she's going. She can't tell her husband what she's doing, and she's in danger a lot. She's living this world where it's so antithetical to how most, you know, most sort of moms are taught to show up in America as mothers, even working mothers. And it also addresses, you know, the undercurrent that she gets a lot of judgment from other mothers that she's not around as much. And she's like, if I were a man, this wouldn't be an issue. There's a lot of men in the military or who have jobs where they're away for several months at a time, or even if they're away for short time, she was always missing, you know, kids games or graduations and things. So I liked seeing a character in real life kind of navigate the misconceptions and the pressures that working women face when they're juggling their career and their families. I don't have children. I don't have human children. I have a dog, but I don't have human children. But I can imagine how the pressures of the work you know, the work environment nowadays, at odds with the demands of being a mother and the stereotypes that women face versus working men, and I really sympathize. So I loved that series for addressing that head on. And again, I don't know if there were liberties taken by the writers. I don't know if her husband's really a pediatric oncologist. I don't know if she was really murdering people as much as she did in the show, but I thought it was really good entertainment to just make women feel a little more fearless. And, you know, she was very fit, and she was, she was a soldier, and she could handle all these really dangerous situations. So in terms of how I thought about, you know, Celeste, like, kind of advancing to the next level, and being able to, you know, do hand to hand combat if someone were trying to kidnap her, or, you know, learn how to handle a gun, or things that I never grew up thinking I would do unless I had been a spy. But, you know, it was fun to watch that, to see how she how this woman trained, and how she was able to manage these really dangerous situations. And again, it's obviously what I'm writing is fiction. It's, you know, a figment of my imagination and themes that I decide that I want to focus on, but I like doing it in more of a roundabout way than addressing it directly. And these themes that I wanted were, you know, messy, complex woman who's at the height of her career, who has this dark past, can still have a beautiful life, but it's not going to be without challenges, and she really has to learn to trust herself to your earlier point to be able to navigate this very complicated world that she now finds herself in.

Jamie Lee  38:01  
You also remind me of Carrie Russell's character in the diplomat. There was a series of series, except she didn't have a taste for high fashion. She had a taste for suits, pantsuits, dark, great pantsuits. But yeah, it was a great character speaking of purpose, passion, purpose and passion, something that we touched on earlier. I know that you just launched a program for other women, right, who want to be published writers. It's called Aphrodite author program. Tell us about Aphrodite author

Speaker 1  38:41  
program, sure, when I launched trading secrets in 2020 I had a moment where I was like, do I want to do self publishing, or do I want to start my own publishing imprint? And it was really important to me to amplify other women's voices. I've always sort of, you know, I've either been mentor or yoga teacher. I've had a long history of, you know, helping other women the way that so many women before me have helped me. And I wanted to pay it forward. So I was like, You know what? I might not be able to do it right away, but at some point, I would like to start publishing other authors under the Aphrodite books imprint. So fast forward to a few months ago, I actually left my corporate world that I've been in for two decades plus, and decided that I was going to pursue this full time as an author and writing coach publisher. So when I was thinking about the program, I really thought about what helped me what were my barriers when I was starting out, especially for working women who don't work in, you know, publishing or journalism, it's really hard to to have the accountability to even know how to start as you're working through I want to write a book. How does that translate into having a book? On a bookshelf. So I thought a lot about how to create the program and what my strengths are and where my gaps are. So if you're looking for an agent, or if you've decided you're traditionally publishing, and you do have an agent, probably not the right program for you. If you have a manuscript that you've written and you want someone to talk through what your voice is and your vision for the manuscript and give their opinion on, you know, how they think it reflects your authentic voice? I can certainly help with that. That's a two week intensive. The next program that I'm doing is something that's very passionate and near and dear to my heart. So I was writing, trading secrets from 2012 to 2017 I was complaining to a friend that I just didn't understand how to get past the finish line. A typical novel is 80 to 100,000 words. I had written 300,000 words, and it was not a book. It was a bunch of scenes that did not make a story, so I had to really figure out, like, am I going to do this? How am I going to learn how to write I don't know how to write a book. I had all this imposter syndrome. Even though I've been writing my entire career, I just felt like I didn't have the right qualifications to do it. And I was on vacation with a friend who's a journalist, and complaining about how I just couldn't finish this book. And I was like, I'm tired. Like, I'm tired of being one of those people that just talks about it and doesn't do it. And she's like, when are you gonna writing coach? I was like, Oh my gosh. What is that those exist? Why did I not know about this? I need this. How do I find one? And she actually had a friend who was a writing coach and a development editor, and it took me a month, I'm not kidding you, to rewrite the manuscript, having a coach, and I'd struggled with it for years. So other things happened. I had to move for work, and I had some other kind of chaotic, external things happening, and that's why I didn't publish it until 2020 but having a coach revolutionized my writing journey, and I really understood at that point why modern women just need to outsource what they can outsource, and a lot of times that's just accountability. So I've heard you talk about accountability before as well, but you know, having a writing coach who is sort of your fiduciary, like has your best interest at heart and wants you to show up well, wants you to succeed is so important in this journey, because if you don't have a publisher breathing down your neck with a deadline, it's just you kind of hanging out, telling people that you know that you want to write a book, or you're writing a book, no one's actually making sure you Write it. No one cares if you write it. And 82% of people that start writing their first book never finish it. Like 3% actually like publish it and move on to the next one. So it's such an elite small group of people that do this. I just wanted to make it more accessible to women who maybe had a similar background to mine, had a career completely outside of publishing, and just wanted to do something that they felt was part of their life purpose or their legacy. So the second program is really meant to be that sort of coaching of what I had. It's a bespoke program, so it works with either the author who's just starting out or the author who, you know, like me, had this voluminous set of words that was not a book, and really refine that into what could be a polished manuscript. And, you know, I can explore with the author or aspiring author, different publishing pathways. I'm not an expert on traditional publishing. I had an agent for a short time, but I decided that self publishing, or boutique publishing was more for me and more aligned with my values and my timeline. So, you know, there are plenty of resources for people that are very certain that that's their route. What I find, though, is that a lot of professional women are a bit more entrepreneurial, and this is just one part of their platform. They're not really interested in writing full time, and they're very interested in, you know, pursuing this as something else that's in their coffer of qualifications. So establishing them as an expert, or working through trauma or sharing their story to empower other women are, you know, the ideal angles and candidates that I'd like to work with. So right now I'm starting, I've started coaching a few people. It's so much fun. You probably love coaching too. You know, it's so much I do it full time. Yeah, yeah. I I love and I love being able to write and have my own writing and work through my own things and also translate that into helping others. So it's been so much fun. And then the third pathway is meant to be for those who graduated from the coaching program, which would be publishing with Aphrodite or starting your own self publishing imprint, and I can help navigate. And share what I've learned and what's worked and what hasn't. For me, it is so complex, not in a way that means it's difficult. There's just so many little pieces that go into publishing that I didn't understand, like the, you know, the ISBN on the back of a book. There it is, like the ISBN on the back of a book. If you're a self published author, there's a certain website you have to buy it from. A lot of authors don't know that. There aren't a lot of resources to make it easy. If you don't buy the right ISBN, you're not going to be able to be on certain websites to sell your book. And you also, if you don't know in advance that you have to apply to the Library of Congress to be included. You can't do that post publication. So I didn't know that with my first book, and I sort of knew it with my second book, but I was just in a rush to get it out. So my third book will be the first one that's included in the Library of Congress. And you know, I wish I had known that in advance. So there are just so many little things that make it much more complex than it has to be. So I want to demystify that for other authors who are, you know, aligned with me and with the way that I chose to proceed, and really get more authors, more voices, more unique, fierce women as published authors, so that we have more to choose from. It could be

Jamie Lee  46:26  
any genre. It could be thrillers. It could be romance, it could be non fiction. It could be how to it could be children's books. So every woman who's watching or listening to this who had an idea or even a desire to write and publish a book. It sounds like you're giving them sort of like a shortcut to either being published through the Aphrodite imprints or establishing their own imprint empire. Is what I heard.

Speaker 1  46:58  
Yes, and I do have another published author already under Aphrodite a dear friend of mine from college and now as a colleague, she has published some children's books under the Aphrodite author program and the imprint. So any genre works I began my writing career, writing for the Indiana yoga Association newsletter was my first published works, and my second was academic medicine. I was the first author in a tier one medical journal at age 25 so when I was working on my bioethics masters, I was writing, writing up some of our research projects and submitting them to peer review journals in bioethics, medical ethics and other other areas. I've done a lot of grant writing, and then in the corporate and legal worlds, I've been a writer. So I've experienced a lot of different types of writing, great writing, not so great writing, clear communication, persuasive writing. So I would love to work with any genre of people that are looking for the pathway that I've outlined, how is

Jamie Lee  48:09  
what you're offering different from a hybrid publishing model?

Speaker 1  48:13  
I haven't worked with hybrid publishers, so I can't speak directly to what they offer offer. I don't know that any of them have as individualized, one on one type approaches that I do at least what I've seen, I haven't heard that it is similar, and that the author invests upfront, as does the publisher, as do I in the in the getting the book up and running, and then the sales model is that the author gets the majority of the revenue from the books once they're published. So it's a little backwards to traditional publishing. Traditional publishing, you know, the publisher invest heavily upfront, and then the author gets a much smaller return on the sales. So hybrid publishers, from what I've seen, they offer these suite of services, but they make me a bit nervous the way that they're marketing. You know, they use a lot of AI editing. They use a lot of like an ISBN is $25 and they charge you $125 for it, and then they own it and it's in their name. And I don't know, it makes me a little nervous how much power you're giving them and how much money you're giving them upfront, without really any guarantee that they're going to prioritize your work. What I want to do, at least at this point, with the size I am and how nimble I can be, I'd like to work really closely build long term relationships with amazing, unique, fierce women who want to keep writing throughout their lives and build that out to be this amazing set of Aphrodite authors. And I don't think I've mentioned this yet, but I do have a foundation Aphrodite gives, and a portion of the proceeds of every sale go toward that. The. The angle you know that I give through, or the lens that I give through, are programs that empower women and girls around the world. So sometimes it's local programs, sometimes it's global, and it's really important to me to publish with purpose and passion. That's my tagline for Aphrodite books. I want others who you know are committed to philanthropy, are committed to giving back, to be involved. And ideally, every author will have a cause partner that they want to designate their revenue portion through Aphrodite books to go toward. So for instance, Christy D, who I mentioned, who's written the children's books, her passion is running. She's an elite marathoner. She's one of the very few, I think, seven star finishers on the planet. And I think in our age group, there's like 500 women who have completed all seven of the major marathons. So she's incredibly impressive, very humble. She's an amazing running coach, and her cause is to help, to help running be more accessible for young girls. So whether that's tennis shoes or coaching program, we would consider all those different types of funding opportunities and donate accordingly. So what I'd love to have, you know or not, what I'd love to have, but I will have. What I am envisioning is that, you know, every author will have a link to their cause partner in addition to their story and their books on the Aphrodite books website. And then, you know, you can feel you're investing in a purpose driven company when you're buying Aphrodite books and get to learn more about different types of programs and more about the authors and what's important to them.

Jamie Lee  51:44  
So just to recap, what I'm hearing is that you are also a book writing coach. You can work one on one with people, help them get started and finish a book. You can also help people just get past the finish line. So that's like, very like, direct approach. You help people get it done, and you also help people set up their own publishing imprint, and so thereby self publish, or they can be published under your imprint, so that it, it's kind of, it's closer to self publishing than going through a hybrid model. But also, they don't have to. It's almost like a concierge service. It sounds like, yeah,

Speaker 1  52:33  
yeah. I love that analogy. It's really important to me, at this phase to be very involved in very, you know, develop of great relationship with every author. So I want to make sure we're a good fit from day one. I want to make sure that I'm helping the author on their journey. I want to make sure that they're at a place in their lives where they feel like they can devote some time to this, if they just have some accountability and someone who will help them, you know, not abandon their dream of becoming a published author. So, so yeah, it is a much more personalized approach. And like I said, it's just, it's important to me because it works so well for me. I'm grateful that I'm a lawyer on this journey, because I had, I obviously had to learn how to do a lot of new things and switching Industries at age 40, but I was able to navigate so much more of it, much more easily because I was a lawyer. And I just think it's, it's, it's not demystified. There are a lot of resources of people that you know kind of write blogs or have podcasts to tell you how to self publish, but I've really learned from trial and error of what's worked for me, and I think a lot of it is selling authors products that they don't necessarily need or that won't help them get over the finish line. So, you know, I've heard a lot of authors talk about like, using Scrivener, for instance, it's a software. It's very complex to me. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to work it, or I haven't spent enough time on it, but it's

Jamie Lee  54:09  
going to strike that from this podcast, not smart enough, What? What?

Speaker 1  54:16  
I'm sorry. Maybe I'm not, like, tech savvy enough or something to understand the software, but it's essentially very complex software that you

Jamie Lee  54:25  
can it's not good enough for you, Rachel, it's not that good enough for me. Exactly. There you go. Okay,

Speaker 1  54:30  
a Microsoft Word document that is blank. But what I was telling someone I'm coaching the other day, this is very similar to fitness training or anything else where you have to experience it, to learn it in your body, you have to sit with your ass in the chair and look at a blank document and power through the resistance and the demons and the procrastination and the perfectionism, and just start writing word after word on a page you can. Just read your way through it. Watch YouTube videos your way through it. Listen to podcasts your way through it. You have to sit in the chair, just like if you're strengthening a muscle, you have to be in the gym with the weights, strengthening the muscle all the time. It's a muscle to write a book. You have to exercise it. So it's really this kind of physical manifestation of translating what's in your mind into other people's minds, right? So you have to use the medium that you have, and I think it's really important that authors and aspiring authors know you have to actually put the 1000s of hours in to write, and there aren't really a lot of shortcuts. There's a lot of fear. I know you've talked about AI on your podcast before, and Authors Guild, I think, is suing open AI maybe because what's happening is that these AI systems are using published works to train their machine learning so that you can actually a friend of mine did this many years ago, and I'm sure it's much more complex and advanced now, but he put my book into chat GPT, and he said, write the next. Write the next sequel to Rachel Eckles trading secrets. And it did. I wrote a book, and it took like, four minutes, and it was terrible, but it was a book, and people are going to publish those people who don't think that you should have to write the whole book, or don't care about the creative process. But I think there's a lot to be said about using AI appropriately, using it to help, especially as an entrepreneur, I think it's incredibly valuable. I don't know how I would run my business without AI telling me how to create a spreadsheet to do something or how to hook up a microphone to my computer. I don't have a tech support team anymore like I did in corporate America, but so I think it's incredibly valuable for a lot of reasons, but I don't think it should be used to bypass the creative process. The creative process is sitting in the chair, facing all of the things in your mind, fighting through those and turning your ideas into a medium that other people can put into their brains. And I think it's really a special privilege to be an author and to have others read your work, but you do have to put the time in. That was a really long winded answer, but I don't, I don't love the idea of selling people the shortcut to writing a book, or that you have to have this software, that software. You have to have a Master of Fine Arts, or you have to do all these things. You don't have to do any of that. You don't even need an agent. You just need

Jamie Lee  57:44  
the account. Oh, you don't even need an agent. Fascinating, okay, yeah, I don't have an agent. Cool. So this is for women who want the direct approach, the direct approach, getting it done, going through the creative process, and, you know, bypassing the middle people, so that you have the book to share with the world. Where can people go to learn more about Aphrodite author program, about the Celes Donovan series.

Speaker 1  58:23  
So there's a few ways my website is first resource. You can usually connect to a lot of my social from there, you can buy copies of the books from there, if you'd like signed paperbacks, and you can navigate to Amazon, Barnes and Noble etc, through there, as well as my social media account. So that's Rachel eckles.com I have an extra a in my first name, so look at Jamie show notes to get the spelling of my name. There's actually a few people with very similar spelling spellings of my name, so it's kind of funny, like they'll get my Gmail every once in a while, or something. So all my contact information is on the website, as well as the Aphrodite author program, the Aphrodite hyphen books.com website will be up soon. I had to get through this launch. It's not extremely difficult to create a website and to give feedback to your web designer, but I just didn't have the headspace. So that will be up soon. But the link on Rachel eckles.com allows you to look at the programs. You can fill out an application form and set up a 15 minute discovery call with me, see if we're a good fit. So it's a great resource. The books are, you know, available on Amazon, I think is where most people buy books, but it's also available on Barnes and Noble and Apple books, and I am working to get into bookstores. It's a, you know, it's an uphill battle when you are a small publisher, because the bookstores want a fairly heavy discount. I was actually working out the numbers and it I lose money on every sale if it's in a bookstore. So. Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense, because I have to pay for the printing costs, but I hope once I have more authors in the volume, we'll be able to be more widely available in brick and mortar stores. Most self published authors and small publishing houses don't prioritize that, because it's extremely difficult, even if you're a traditionally published author, to have your work and brick and mortar bookstores.

Jamie Lee  1:00:23  
So we talked about menopause. We talked about HRT. We talked about, you know, define death, because, as women who are in our 40s, as women who are sort of coming into our own right and coming into like our power in terms of what we can do, creatively, professionally. I love that. You know, Aphrodite author program and the Celes Donovan series is sort of exemplifying right, showing, demonstrating what an empowered woman can do, right in many sense of that word. And as you said, when women are empowered, we empower other women and help them get past the middle people, absolutely, and get it done. That's that's what I'm learning from you today. Is there anything else that you want to make sure you share that we haven't yet addressed with the audience?

Speaker 1  1:01:15  
We have addressed so many things. So I'm having a lot of launch events in September, and we'll be doing this is you're the first, but I'll be doing a podcast tour on several podcasts, and we'll have a lot of influencers working with them on getting the books out. If you do enjoy the books, one of the best things you can do for an author is give them a five star review on Amazon Good Reads and the other sites that you buy books on, it's incredibly valuable. It seems like an afterthought, but it is. It helps so much for the credibility of especially someone publishing through a small publishing house. I am very ethically opposed to buying reviews. So my you know, I always want someone to give an honest review, but if you really enjoy it, an honest review that is very good is much more helpful,

Jamie Lee  1:02:11  
yes, and that reminds me, that reminds me to invite the audience to leave a five star review, whether it's on YouTube, Apple Spotify for this podcast as well. It helps other people find risky conversations with smart, ambitious, multi hyphenate, amazing women like Rachel Eckles, thank you so much, Rachel.

Speaker 1  1:02:34  
Yeah. And then, um, sorry, just one more thing, uh, you know, book clubs are a great way to spread the word if you enjoy someone's book. So I always try to tell, you know, spread the message about books that I love to everyone I know. So that's really helpful. And, you know, supporting authors and their other journeys. If you know of authors who are interested and need some support, please direct them to me. I'd love to chat with them. Or if you yourself are interested in writing a book. If you feel like it's part of your life purpose and your legacy, please contact me and let's talk.

Jamie Lee  1:03:07  
All right. Thank you so much. Rachel, you.