0:00  
Welcome to risky conversations. My name is Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics, and I help them get promoted, get better paid, without throwing anyone under the bus. And how I support them in having some risky conversations and everything that's worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. I'm really excited to have my sister from another mother, my colleague, SD Shanti. SD Dr, SD Shanti. She began her career as a pediatric and dentist and public health specialist. I mean, talk about overachiever, pediatric, pediatric dentist and public health specialist in academia. From there, she went on to get a PhD in Clinical Psychology and ended up working to address the global epidemics of violence and depression. Yes, we still are having those global epidemics. Right now, violence affects one in every three women and one in every two children and countless men and youth after facing experts who are pessimistic about change. Dr St Shanti inspired. She was inspired to develop innovations in violence prevention, which were incubated at Stanford University and have been peer reviewed, including by the Violence Prevention Alliance of the World Health Organization. She's developed a cost effective, research based methods to prevent violence, which affects over 1 billion people. She founded the world love forum is now gearing up to launch a global campaign to prevent violence through the implementation of love within homes, schools, workplaces, media and community. This is a very ambitious project. Dr SD Shanti, I'm really, really privileged and honored to have you on the podcast, I mean, to talk about how to prevent violence in our world that takes guts, that takes big guts. So I'm really excited to hear all about the world. Love forum. But first, here's the question I ask everyone who come onto the podcast, what was one of the riskiest conversations you've engaged in, and why was it worth it?

2:40  
Thank you so much, Jamie, for your warm welcome. It's a delight to be here with you. And you know, it's interesting. You're talking about ambition. It's maybe it's more just discontent with the status quo. That's the thing. If I were more Zen in life, I probably would be more accepting of things. But it bothers me that there is so much that we don't have to accept in the world, that you know, especially things that are preventable forms of suffering. So to your question, which I really appreciate, because it gave me a chance to reflect. I realized probably one of the most pivotal, risky conversations I had was with myself, and it was a moment when I was working on a child as a pediatric dentist, and at that point I was already a dual specialist, you know, and in Pediatric Dentistry and Dental public health, which technically means you had all these tools and means at your disposal to help help problems, address problems. And there was this insight in the middle of this moment with the child's, you know, crying and the drill and noise and all this. And I thought to myself, am I going to do this the same thing for the next 3040, years, or where is there a better way? There's got to be a better way. And that's, you know, there I was with all these credentials and skills, actually that. But I thought it's not enough. There has to be more to solving this problem. And so probably the riskiest thing I've ever done. It's a repeated theme is it's in psychology that I have found the most creative work. And dentistry always represents security. You know, it's steady job. And you mentioned, you know, we might be sisters from a different mother, and, I mean, also coming from an immigrant background, it's, I mean, I had relatives who were a little bit freaked out, like calling me, saying, Why are you giving up your job as a professor to go, go be a grad student. You're crazy. You're this, you're that. Yeah, and, you know, so I think that was that moment really stands out for me, because I was so filled with discontent, and I just thought I Yeah, had I stayed in that path, I would have made a lot more money, you know, I made lots more money, but I just felt there's a better way to address suffering in the world, and so I just left it. I have repeatedly left known things in pursuit of something better in the unknown,

5:32  
which is very zen, right? In Zen, we learned that, like all things, even who we really are, ultimately unknown, but I'm fascinated, because you were a pediatric dentist, you're a professor, you were making high income, and then you pivoted to become a graduate student in psychology. Is that? Is that right? Did I follow this correctly? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that was the risk. You were like, there's something more, something bigger that I am meant to work towards, or a bigger purpose that I want to serve.

6:15  
You know, I hadn't thought of it quite that way. I was just, I couldn't stand giving kids shots. I couldn't stand seeing problems that were preventable. You know, I was seeing kids. We all we would see kids with advanced dental decay, with abscesses. I mean, there's a severe form of dental disease that young children get where, you know, several teeth are rotten, and sometimes it causes abscesses, infection. These children have to be seen in the operating room, under general anesthesia. It still goes on today, you know, but I, I just thought, Why? Why is it like this? Why can't it be better? And I think that one of the as I think about it, one of the things that really grabbed me in terms of psychology was this question of what makes parents or anyone do something even when they know better. So I think as a point of inquiry, that's one of the things that guided me, that you know, a lot of times we know what needs to be done for ourselves, right? We all have to exercise, maybe get more sleep, drink less

7:27  
coffee, eat less candy, brush your teeth, floss, right?

7:32  
Speaking from my own, my own goals are to reduce my coffee intake and so. But, you know, we all know what we should be doing, but the challenge lies in doing that. And and so I was looking for answers to these questions in psychology, and that's where I found them. And and one thing has led you know, it's like a one thing led to another, to another, which I never could have predicted. Really, all I wanted was to just go back, go get my PhD, go back to a dental school and be a professor and, you know, and have a normal life, which has not happened at all.

8:16  
Maybe, maybe you can retrace the steps for us. So you were a pediatric dentist, and then you were a grad student in psychology, yeah, and how, what were, or what were their steps that led you to world love forum. And, you know, I also want to hear more about world love Forum.

8:37  
Thank you. So the PhD program I went to, I got into, like, two or three places, and the one I chose was historically a pioneer in prevention and mental health. And, you know, at that point, I already had a master's in public health. So for me, it was very exciting, even to enter psychology with this idea of prevention, and I had a unique trio. So it was this professor who was a pioneer in prevention, and then there's a woman. There was a woman professor who introduced me to feminist psychology, women's mental health issues, all the issues around gender and women's mental health. And then I had another professor who was very much into family psychology and children. So there was, there was this wonderful cluster there that led me to, I went to the University of Vermont, and I was already primed with all of these things. So first, because of already having a master's in public health, I'd worked in inner city health centers and in health, you know, health centers on I would work part time as a clinician, as a dentist, and that brought me in the trenches, if you will, outside of academia, right in the, you know, face to face with people experiencing problems. And I had seen quite a. Already and and so interestingly, I when I entered psychology, it was like, wow, I found a treasure trove of answers to these problems. And shortly after I got my PhD, I had moved to Switzerland. At the time, I was at University of Basel, the World Health Organization and Harvard School of Public Health, I believe, came out with what was called the Global Burden of Disease report in 1997 that said depression was already a leading cause of disability for women around the world at that time. And so for me, coming from this prevention background, I just went, Whoa, what is this? You know, that was for me, it was like, oh my god, like I knew it was bad, but I didn't know it was this bad and it would they said also that depression would be a major issue for men, also in the years to come. And so immediately, as soon as I heard that, I thought to myself, what are we going to do? What can we do? For me, it felt like a giant wave hitting the population, you know, and we're already in it. And and the thing I learned from my professor, my former professor, Esther rothblum, who, coincidentally, I'm in San Francisco, and she's retired, and she's in San Francisco too. So in fact, I'm seeing her tomorrow for lunch, and but she had really opened my eyes to the whole literature around women's experiences. And I thought to myself, we've got to do something. We've just got to do something, and one thing led to another. Never, it's never a straight clean line, and it was a zigzag and and so. And one of the themes I encountered after that, around that time, was how there's a gap between quality research based information and stuff that the public receives or doesn't receive. So one of the big gaps in the world, and in my field, in pub or in public health mental health, is the gap between what we know about prevention of problems and the application of that, the widespread application. So I became very interested in what would be called health information dissemination, or translation of science into practice. So these are, these are ongoing themes since then. And a little while after the global data on depression came out for women, the UN published a report that said violence affects one in every three women around the world. And again, you know, my jaw dropped, because we all know violence is a problem. I mean, you've got to be living in a cave or something if you don't know that, right? But the numbers were so stark to me. And I've, you know, I've known, I've worked with clients who are affected, I have relatives and so on. And you know, it's something we all know about in our lives, unfortunately. But it was so stark, the idea that it's one in three. And sometime after that, the who also came out with data that violence affects one in every two children. So for me, both of these reports, the first one on depression and the one on violence, were points of no return, and it was, it's literally like leaping off a cliff each time and I have no parachute, I, you know, I mean, I have to try to build a parachute as as it's, you know, as I'm flying or dropping or whatever, or leaping off the cliff. So and I, you know. So one thing I would say about this to share with your listeners is a lot of times something speaks to us inside, and I would encourage people to listen to that with an open mind. And it's so easy for everyone around us to dissuade us and talk us out of it using logic. I mean, people come from a place of love, you know, they're they're worried, they're scared, whatever. So for somebody among your listeners, it might be music, it might be art, it might be literature, or it might be something else, you know. So it doesn't have to be, you know, becoming a peace activist or something. But I really invite people to to listen in to what is with I call it the compass of your heart and and it's not easy, but then not following it is also not easy. So it's like, choose. Saying, you know, the lesser of the two and and if any of your listeners ever want to just reach out, they're happy to connect with me on LinkedIn, happy to just be a sounding board and cheering. What is, what do you call it? Like a cheering squad for whoever you know, it's not always going to make financial sense. I am financially nowhere near where I could have been, you know,

15:22  
but question about what you said earlier. So, so violence affects one in three women, yeah, and it it affects one in two children. So every other child is impacted by violence, yes. And what kind of violence is this violence that they that the report was alluding to?

15:46  
So with women, according to the UN there are about at least 15 kinds of violence, but the most frequent ones are physical assault. For instance, intimate partner violence, sexual assault. You know, bride kidnapping is something that still goes on today in certain cultures. You know, breast ironing, breast there are all these kind of also cultural practices, female genital mutilation, some people would say, is part of people's culture, but others would argue, there's no medical reason for it, and it poses risk. Human Trafficking also is a huge problem at the moment, according to the International Labor Organization, you know, they're, they're over, I think over 26 million people who are you who are currently experiencing human trafficking. So that's huge. And then apropos of The Who and Child child maltreatment and violence, so this particular study had looked at in the last 12 months of the study, or something, as I said, any given time in a year. So there's physical with children, there's physical violence, there's neglect or maltreatment. And then there's also psychological violence, which, you know, some people will say sticks and stones can't hurt, you know, Sticks and stones may hurt my bones, but words don't hurt me at all. But in fact, we know that words can damage children. It's, you know, it has a major impact on people's development and lifelong you know, this is how, when we talk about internalized messaging and so on, that of lack of feeling worth or, you know, we see kids evaluated for their looks or something, somebody will say something, and that's really a milder thing, but there are, there are a hell of a lot of kids in the world who are physically hit, you know, spanked. And again, we come to a cultural thing where, so there's, there's the extreme form of violence. Like the first case I ever had to file was a child who's the report I had to file. It was a kid who had childhood burn marks on their forearm and and it was from an iron, like a hot iron. So people do all kinds of nasty things to children. There's that all the way to, you know, consistently negative speech that's undermining it's harsh. And right now, corporal punishment has been outlawed in some places, and there are a lot of data that show that corporal punishment harms children long term. So what we want to do is shift from that kind of upbringing to more, you know, to alternative ways of disciplining children and teaching children how to grow into the world. And I just wanted to finish early. I want to say like, you know, so my wealth for having deviated or followed this path, my wealth is really in something else. And you know, at the moment, it's you know again, that's part of following your heart, I think, is for your listeners to recognize there are other currencies. And yes, money is important, but there are other currencies in life as well, like love or satisfaction or feeling like, Have you lived out your utmost gifts? You know, so I that's a that's something to consider also.

19:25  
And that makes sense, because so much of the violence that we do see in our world are motivated by money, by material wealth, by greed, by me, needing to have more than you, and you know that in you know, gender based violence has been happening for millennia. I come from South Korea, where my mother experienced some domestic violence from her her husband's family because. She only had three daughters, and so that was considered, like, you know, a kind of a sin, because she didn't bear any sons in a patrilineal society where all the wealth goes to the boys. So, yeah, this really hits home that, and it makes sense that for you, it's something beyond money, something beyond you know, dollar currencies that motivate you to do the work that you do. And it also makes sense that in psychology, you found the connection between all the violence, all the different 15, you said, 15 different forms of violence that women and children get confronted or faced with leads to psychological illness, including depression. And so talk to us about the solution that the world love forum offers like, what? What are the what are the tangible solutions that you're offering as an antidote to this epidemic of violence and depression.

21:05  
Thank you. And you know, and also the experience you shared in your family of origin about girls, that's the same thing. My roots are in India. And you know, this is an age old thing where daughter in laws are blamed and when, in fact, it's the male sperm that determines the gender of the child, right? And so, which is a little bit ironic and sad. So, yeah, what? There are two. So one of the gaps that we are aiming to fill is in skills training and bringing these, what if I may use the word behavioral vaccine or skills training to millions of people, and so it's Think of it like hand washing, tooth brushing, driver's Education for relationships, or, you know, tooth hand washing, Mental Hygiene. We have hand hygiene, right? We also we need to have mental hygiene. And so what I talk about is a trio of hope. There is love, emotion regulation or brush your mind, and violence prevention. They go together and and they're interconnected. So in fact, right now, like this week, I'm launching the next step, which is the global scaling. And I have a framework I developed while I was at Stanford called blueprint for hope, and it talks about what are the three, three things we must do, and how to do them in terms of bridging this gap. And so some of the key features of that work, and in my portfolio, are, one is entertainment, education. And so this is a way. It's a science based way to bring information and behavior change to millions of people through soap operas, for instance. And so the proof of concept that I had done in Ethiopia earlier, it was funded by UNICEF and reached 20 million people. So typically, what we might do is, you know, offer couples skills training to couples through a workshop and and, you know, but it's limited in terms of how many people we can reach, or, you know, people, people may not enroll. They don't have money, so many. There's so many barriers. So what I did instead was teach these skills for conflict de escalation, for instance, because that's one ways couples end up in violence is because they fight over money and financial stressors and other, you know, in laws, kids, all these things. And so that's just one example of a skill that I taught the script writers and producers, and they, in turn, had their characters carry out their behavior, these behaviors. And so this is a way you can model for large numbers of people alternatives to violence. So and two things happen when we do that through mass media. So one is that you are role modeling for people. You're showing them what can what can be done. And when we do it on a large enough number, we are shifting culture, harmful cultural norms. So for instance, there has history of doing soap operas or serial drama. That's the technical name for soap opera in China where, you know, also historically, there has been devaluation of girl children. And so this is something where they had dramas where, you know, the main character has raises a girl and so on. And in India, also in the 70s, there was a drama. That was made a soap opera where it showed, you know, women's empowerment like or in South America, dramas have shown women buying a sewing machine and opening their own business as a tailor, and after that, you know, sales of sewing machines went up. But these are ways of reaching large numbers of people with self empowerment techniques, psychological techniques, and then the other part. One of the other features, or in my blueprint for hope, is the focus on women and women as not only beneficiaries of social change, but also women to empower women as agents of social change. And this is based on a meta analysis a large study done by a professor at UCLA. His name is car K, A, R, and what he showed is that women and women's groups around the world successfully carry out health promotion efforts, regardless of whether they are in rich country, rich countries or poor countries. And so when I was doing the early stages of my formative research, there were all these famous people at famous institutions who were so negative towards the whole thing and very pessimistic, you know, saying things like, Why do you even bother? I mean, these are, like, well resourced people at famous places, going in private, looking at me, going, Why do you even bother? It's hopeless. And I was like, no. I said, How long do you watch people cry in your office? I was a therapist already, and I said, you know, how long do you watch people cry when you know prevention is possible? And but this professor, Carr, when I reached out to him, he wrote me, he had some exchanges. I've had exchanges with all these people. And he said, you are correct in focusing on women. And so that is one of the things I'm working on, is to teach prevention to you know, my first goal is a million women and reach 1 billion through entertainment, and then after that, reach 200 million women. And, you know, imagine if millions of people know the basics of prevention. They can implement it in their own spheres of influence in their countries. They you know, we can show people how to advocate for policy, for instance, or how to start putting things in entertainment, how to be, how to be a collective force for good and and, you know, these things are not just to benefit women. It benefits everybody. That's the idea. And where love comes in is, it's the highest good, you know, it's our highest common denominator, and, and that's what everyone longs for. And, and when we promote love in the world, we automatically reduce violence. It just goes, that goes together. You know, which Buddha said that long ago, 1000s of years ago, about hate and, you know, and it's, it's proven by modern neuroscience and psychology. So, yeah, so that's where things are.

28:11  
And, you know, you remind me when I was first getting started as a coach for women, focusing on professional women, one of the most motivating stats that I encountered. So this was, like, I don't know, more than 10 years ago, the Clinton Global Initiative put out research saying that when women around the world, so not just in developed countries, but in developing countries, when women earn money when they have resources. They in 91% of them invested back into their communities and families. And as for men, it was much lower. I forget exactly what it was like. I don't know it was like half or less, right? So when I read that, it really brought home the point for me, you know, watching my mother, who, you know, ended up, after immigrating to America, getting divorced and raising three daughters by herself, speaking broken English right after she have survived domestic violence her just like thriving as this solopreneur. I mean, she hustled, she she still does. She's a hustler, you know, but you know, seeing that she was able to benefit us and we're able to be, you know, productive members of society, and go to college and you know, it's just like I had a direct experience of what a woman, what a single woman, can do when She is no longer under the thumb of violence and yeah, and there's a lot of tough love, right? When you're a mother or a maternal figure, you don't have to have your own children to, you know, to be in touch with that, that loving compassion as as the the Buddha people would say. Buddhist people would say, yeah, so maybe you can tell us a little bit more about self compassion, because I think that sort of is at the heart, right? Of not just what you know, what all the major religions preach, including the Buddha, but also what real, true love, self love starts with right? And so maybe I'd love to really hear like specific examples of some of these techniques that you espouse, that you try to, you know, share with the millions and hundreds of millions of women like I would love to hear like a specific example of a technique or a tool that would help you know a person, be in touch or to cultivate self compassion.

30:48  
Thank you. So if I may, just, I want to acknowledge your mother as, yeah, she's really cool. Found figure of resilience. I mean, you know, and now I understand more about where you get your fire and spark from so, you know, so, yeah, so broadly speaking, we can think of self compassion as under the coming under the overarching umbrella of self regulation, or managing our emotions. Emotion regulation managing our behaviors, and again, as with other areas, elements from our 1000s of year old our indigenous psychology has been studied in the West, and, you know, backed up and proven by Western science. And so self regulation has been huge, excuse me, self compassion has been hugely studied. And the leading names the researchers are Kristin Neff. She's the expert. She's, you know, practically synonymous with that. And also, there's Christopher Germer and Paul Gilbert, I believe, in England. And so this is a three part practice where, and so excuse me, let me back up and say there's tender self compassion, and now she has also evolved to over the years, has added fierce self compassion. So we can think of tender self compassion as nurturing. It's a very nurturing kind of gentle, soft kind of thing. Fierce self compassion is like a mama bear defending the cup, which is so important for especially for women or women. Sometimes we, we we confront issues in society and so on. And so I'll start with tender self compassion, and we can think of that as talking to ourselves as we would talk to a best friend, you know, because a lot of times, for whatever reason, we have internalized messages about performance, or, you know, how who we are, what we are as we're children, we, you know, a lot of times our we're evaluated by performance, rather than just because we exist, kind of thing. So this is a good antidote for any such issues. And so the first thing is just to accept the situation. So that's where mindfulness comes in. And I talk about it like, almost like, put the issue in a basket in front of you, and just let it be, you know, and acknowledge that it's there. And then this, and it's sort of, I always, I talk also about breathe into it and just settle with it, you know, just it's there. So say I hurt my foot. I'll just do something trivial, you know, I stubbed my toe, and that's a good place to start before going to really, really more complicated, higher order difficulties. And then so you just kind of let it sit there and accept it. Then we connect with humanity and say, you know, this is something that many people experience. I am not alone in this or these kinds of injuries or job loss or illness, whatever happens or discrimination happens. So that's the second part. And then the third part is extending good wishes, compassion to oneself and with positive statements, like, may I be well, may I be healthy, may I be happy, may I be patient, you know. And people can customize whatever they need to hear, whatever, you know, whatever would serve them well in in that regard. And again, you know, Jamie it, I've noticed working with people, with clients and so on, and workshops all. I also do workshops and so on. It's so much easier for people to come up with things to comfort their friend, you know, to affirm their friend, comfort their friend. And so what I just like to say is talk to yourself like you would talk to your best friend. You know, and you can do it. You're you're on the path, may you be well, and so on. And interestingly, then work by Christopher garmer has now found that it's also helpful for reducing shame, which is something, you know, I think men and women experience in society as we're growing up. I mean, so perhaps some more than others. And I'm not sure if girls experience more shame than boys, but I don't like in my Indian culture of origin, it's just such a part of how you give feedback to people, you know, like, why didn't you do this? Or what? Oh, Koreans are just like that too. Yeah, you know, I mean, it could be something absolutely simple, like I was a guest at somebody's house. This was like, 30 years ago, and I offered to chop vegetables and to help, you know, my friend was cooking. My friend's mother looked at me and said, Where did you learn to cut these vegetables? Didn't your mother teach you anything? I was like, Oh, my God, you know, but this is like, that's just everyday talk for people. But in fact, speaking of mothers, I would like to acknowledge it was my mother who, at the age of 14, like I wanted makeup. She gave me the row. She made me read Henry David Thoreau, so, so, so, I think you know, but, but shame, and even today in marketing, for example, a lot of marketing, especially toward women, is is targeted around making us feel inadequate. You know your thigh, your thighs are too big, your skin is the wrong color. Skin lightening creep. Oh, if you're too pale, you gotta get dark. If you're dark, you gotta get light. I mean, there's like nobody is good as they are, right? And so these are all examples of where shame can creep into our lives, even unknowingly. And so self compassion, the tender self compassion, is a way to continually nourish ourselves, if you will. And then the fear self compassion has to do with drawing limits, because, again, a lot of us were raised with this idea, you know, you have to be polite and you have to be a good girl and and pleasant, right? And what is pleasant, you know, standing up for yourself. You know, even if you do it pleasantly, for some people, they're going to interpret it as you're just disagreeable. So, you know, we this fear. Self Compassion is about acknowledging that we have a right to be as we are without having people push us around and, you know, and sort of set boundaries so. So, for instance, if somebody is dealing with toxic workplaces, which, according to, you know, the American Psychological Association, affects 20% of the workforce in the US, and according to the International Labor Organization, affects 20% of the workforce around the world, which is like over 700 million people or something. And so fear self compassion is a way to address that, while also working with many other things that you know you don't have to take what's given to you. You can set boundaries. You can talk about mental shields, or I talk about build a moat, or build a shield or a fence so that you're not taking it in and and be your ally. And, you know, stand up and advocate. Yes, yes, advocate, thank you and and stand up for yourself, right? And so those are examples of self of fear, self compassion, for me in action and coming from a place of love. We don't have to be angry. We can wish the other person, you know, kind of like, I wish you well. But this is not for me. There's a saying in Switzerland, you don't have to, in Swiss German, I learned it, you don't have to drink the soup as hot as it's served. So, you know, they may dish it out, but this is where fear, self compassion can help us in the workplace, where we set limits and and then these are all things that help us with our emotional health. It's part of our emotional you know, it's, it's like, it's part, it's something we can do as part of our mental hygiene practices also. And there's also research that shows that self compassion can help people reduce the risk of burnout, especially like for healthcare workers and so on. So that's a that's a very multipurpose tool with its origins, ostensibly, in the East and Eastern philosophy.

39:56  
So in fact, the part where you said, may I be well May. Be happy. May I be safe. I started attending a Zen meditation center, and every every meditation session, we end with that loving kindness, prayer. I've also heard it described as meta meditation, right? And wishing well of other people and extending that loving kindness outward to the world. So we end the meditation session with, May everyone, may all beings in the world, be happy, may all beings be safe, may they all have peace. And the first time I said the prayer, I was like, I really felt the, you know, it was like I, I felt something direct in my heart. And you know, a lot of ambitious, smart women who might listen to this, they might be like self compassion. I don't know that's I don't have time for that. I'm too busy. I gotta go check off another thing on my to do list. And often, when, you know, clients seek out a therapist like you once were, or when they seek out a coach like me, you know, people are often feeling very stuck, very stressed or burnt out or just frustrated, like they just seem like they can't move forward in a Way, and almost always, self compassion is the antidote to that stuck feeling. And once you give yourself some self compassion, and that it becomes fear self compassion, that's when compassion, you know, takes action. I think that's, that's when the self advocacy is, is something that, you know, something that is like purposeful, but also something that heals.

41:49  
Yes, thank you. And as you were talking, I I want to share what came to mind. We can think of it as concentric circles of love and wishing. Well. You know, in in the east, we don't always say I love you, but that doesn't mean we don't love one another. And you know, I once had a grad student from Korea, and we were talking like, Yeah, my mom never said I love you. It's just not there in certain cultures. It's not a cultural norm, nor in India, historically, it's not but, but we can think of wishing well. I wish you well. And we can, we start with ourselves and extend it to everybody. And you know, you were talking about people, your listeners, for instance, in the workplace. So there is a center for Compassionate Leadership out of New York. I highly recommend people check it out. I have taken courses there, and they are focused on introducing or infusing compassion in the workplace, which to me, is one of is one of the antidotes to toxic workplace. And you know, recently, they have been having discussions about self compassion. And I believe there's research that shows that when a leader has self compassion for themselves in an organization like higher levels of self compassion are associated with better styles of leadership versus, you know, being a task master, for instance, and harsh and and that's something too that you know in the business World some people think, or even with raising children, there's the saying, Raise the rod, spoil what is it? No, Spare the rod, spoil the child, or something like that. Or being harsh in the workplace. You know being tough, being tough is going to bring results, but the fact is that kindness, compassion, softness, these are all things that create neurological safety for us, which I know you talk about in your work as well, and and that is where our ultimate strength lies. So, yeah. So thank you so much for this opportunity to talk with you.

43:57  
Where can people go to learn more about you and world love forum.

44:04  
Any of your listeners are welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn. It's SD Shanti San Francisco, and also this world love forum.org, and it's, right now, a small website on sub stack. It's a newsletter, but we're in the process of, you know, launching now the next phase so they can subscribe there and keep in touch.

44:25  
So excellent. And I will link to all those. I will link all of that in the show notes so people can find it.

44:35  
Thank you so much. Thank

44:36  
you so much for your time. Shanti, my

44:40  
pleasure and thank you, Jamie, it's truly a delight. And yeah, we'll see what lies ahead.

44:45  
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