SPEAKER_03 0:04

Welcome to Risky Conversations. And why risky conversations? Because everything that's worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. Today on the podcast, I am really excited to have Gabrielle Dolan. Gabrielle or Ral, right?

SPEAKER_04 0:26

That's correct. Most people call me Ral. My my little sister could not pronounce my name and she'd say Gabriel, and Ral has stuck all my life.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Gabrielle Dolan is a global expert in strategic storytelling and real communication. So she knows a thing or two about engaging in risky conversations and telling great stories while you're at that, too. And my name is Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach and self-advocacy trainer, and I help smart women who don't like office politics get promoted and better paid without throwing anyone under the bus. And storytelling is really important because when you go to talk about your accomplishments and talk about where you want to go, stories are what help bring that alive. And Gabrielle has written a best seller. It's called Story Intelligence: The Craft of Authentic Storytelling, Made Smarter with AI. And it debuted at number one in Australia. And she's also co-host of the Hit Podcast Keeping It Real with Jack and Rowland ranked, it's ranked Spotify's top three percent most shared podcasts. Very cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yeah, very excited about that.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Yeah, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

So thanks, Jamie. Very glad to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

So you know, I'm curious, were you as a storytelling expert, or maybe even before you became a storytelling expert? I'm curious, what was one of the riskiest conversations you've engaged in? Why was it worth it?

SPEAKER_04 2:15

Yeah, well, I I used to work in corporate, so I worked at one of Australia's largest banks, and um this was over 20 years ago. And I was starting to think, I think there's something in this storytelling business. I think, you know, I sort of noticed when I shared stories they would work, and I, you know, the really good presenters I saw and leaders I saw shared stories. So I was sort of thinking, I think storytelling's a skill. Now, this this was 21 years ago. So storytelling wasn't very, you know, common thing. And I still remember this conversation I had with my manager, and I had applied for a job, and it was like the global head of learning for the bank. And I didn't get it. And and I know and I really thought I would get it, and everyone else thought I would get the job. And my manager said to me, she said, Raoul, this is probably the hardest decision I've made, but I'm not offering you the job. And I I went and we and she told me why. And then she said, What are you gonna do? And I went, I think it's time to go. I think I think I need to go and you know explore this concept of storytelling, you know, as a as a skill. And, you know, maybe maybe on the person that could teach them. And she sort of encouraged me to. She sort of said, Yeah, go for it. And then I I still remember walking out of that conversation. And even though it didn't feel risky at the time, everyone else has since said that was such a risk. And I do remember walking out and ringing my husband straight away. And it was very unusual for us to ring each other during work hours. And he said, What's going on? I go, I've just decided to leave the bank and go out on my own. And he went, Okay, well, you know, knowing you, you've probably thought about it long and hard and decided. And I'm thinking, I actually hadn't thought about it long and hard. I think I'd just decided. But I I still remember, I still remember that feeling of it of verbalizing what I wanted to do and getting the support. So even though it felt a very supportive conversation, you know, it was it was risky what I did. But here we are 21 years later, and looking back, and and I often look back and think if I had have got that job or if I didn't have the courage to leave, I could have I could have gone and got another job where my life would be now, and it would be completely different.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

And so you hadn't really thought deeply about taking that plunge until that moment. It was like a moment of clarity for you.

SPEAKER_04 5:01

It was a moment of clarity. I think because I was so I so thought I'd get this job. I guess the good, the benefit of that is I was on a project and the project was winding down and you know, like it was a big, massive project. And you know, as people leave the project, things still need to be done. And I said to my manager, yeah, I'd be happy to hang it, wait around for the next few months till the project ends. And as people leave, I can sort of pick up the slack so it's a smooth transition. And so I had I probably had three months of still working, and every day, Jamie, I would wake up thinking, this is the day I'm gonna wake up and think, what have I done? And it didn't happen, it it never happened. I just I just felt with clarity that storytelling was a skill. And I you know, I had I had experience in delivering and designing leadership programs, so I knew I could design and deliver leadership programs around storytelling. And and I also, our children were two and five at the time, and part of me thought, if it doesn't work out, at least I'm home with the kids for a while, and I could always go back and get another job. But you know, the reality was I I was on good money, my husband was on good money, but I earned more than him. So, you know, as a as a family, we decided to reduce our income by 60%, which you know that when I look back now, I was like, yeah, that was risky, but clearly we could afford it.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

And so you made that leap. And I'm curious, what was a moment when you realized this is the best thing to me because I'm like enjoying teaching storytelling, and people are doing amazing things with these skills, and I'm so you know glad that I took what was that moment for you?

SPEAKER_04 6:58

Yeah, look, that's a really good question. Because the first few years that was like people would be going storytelling. What's storytelling got to do with business? Like this is you know, fluffy, ooh, once upon a time, it was like, no, it's not that. So there was years and years and years of that. I I gradually started to get, you know, I would do, I would go in and run training workshops, and people would, you know, send me an email later and go, I'm gonna share this story, and I couldn't believe the reaction. And, you know, it's just completely changed the way I communicate and lead. Like the amount of emails and messages and conversations I've had with people to say that my workshop changed the way they led. And you know, part of me is like, if I can make people better leaders, then that has the ripple effect for everyone that works for them. But I I will tell you a moment where I did think, okay, this is pretty cool. This is and I got an email, this was uh probably about seven years ago. I got an email from the Obama Foundation to run storytelling training for them. And at first I thought, oh, this is a joke. Someone is, you know, like and anyway, I responded and then they set up a meeting, and there I was six months later running storytelling training for the Obama Foundation that that you know do leadership programs for um young emerging leaders and got to meet Barack Obama. And I'm thinking, okay, this is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 8:28

That is really cool. Nice, nice. So tell tell us what is the secret? Spill all the beans here.

SPEAKER_04 8:37

Okay, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

What is the secret to telling great stories as a leader?

SPEAKER_04 8:42

Yeah, and it look and it's also with in your introduction about what you do, your mission is to help you know women get promoted without throwing people under the bus and and fabulous mission and purpose in life. Well done, you, Jamie. But as you were talking about that, I was like, one of the things I predominantly see in women when it comes to storytelling is they say, but I don't want to be that person that just brags about themselves all the time and just talks about how great they are through stories. I don't want to be that person. And I only ever have women say that to me. And it was like, okay, the fact that you're saying you don't want to be like that person means you won't be that person. But that's like an extreme. It doesn't mean you don't share stories. So when I, when I when I, you know, in a in a sort of nutshell, I guess, what is storytelling and what makes a good story, I think first uh start with the message. Like, what is the most important message you want to get across? And storytelling lends itself really well to values, for example. So if you if you look at, you know, being promoted, you know, like up to see your leadership or you know, even even in a different industry or department, what it will come back to, yes, you've got your skills and your experience, and you absolutely want to share stories about how you've demonstrated those skills in a professional setting. But where stories really powerful is what do you want to be known for? What's your leadership value? So is it is it around that you want to be known as innovative or you want to be known as authentic or you want to be known as strategic or collaborative? Be really clear on that and then and then so what does that really mean to me? So a lot of people go, Oh, yeah, I want to be known as for integrity. And I go, well, what does that mean to you? Because if what integrity means to me and what integrity means to you will be very different. So getting them clear on the message. So the first step I say before you even get to the story is being really clear on the message that you want to communicate. And then think of a story that could help. Now, you know, could I, you know, if you want to be known as, you know, so say for example, integrity, right? If I said, what does that mean to you? You might go, well, it means, well, you know, I'm not even going to role model this. Jamie, let's do it. What does integrity mean to you? If you sort of said, you know, look, I want to be known as integrity, what would that mean to you? Or you can pick any other value.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

I mean, integrity is a really good one because my clients also say they tell me, I want to make this career pivot, I want to make this promotion with integrity. For me, integrity is like I'm walking the talk I give. I'm you know, what you see is what you get.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

I'm I'm being the same person, like I'm I'm being pull, like the word integer, right? Yeah, pull as in there is no like there's no other side.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

This is okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:42

How what yeah, yeah. And if I sort of kept pressing you to say what else does it mean? Like what else and what I normally do to people is go, what does it mean to you personally? So not because normally people think about work straight away, but what does it mean to you personally? And I would keep asking those questions and you would respond to how you're doing. So it then it's it's getting clear. Like, you know, people sort of say, you know, if I say I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna do it. You know, I'm I'm I will I have courage to speak the truth, you know. So it's getting like down to that level about what it means. And then I go, okay, so now let's find a story. Now you will think of lots of work stories in your professional career to demonstrate that message. But I go, the most powerful story you can share in work is a personal story, as in a non-work-related story connected to your message. So, you know, if I if I said if you sort of said, okay, you said you said walking the talk. So if you know, if what I say and what I do is really consistent, I would say, okay, let think of a time, like where did you get that from? Where did you experience? Was that something your parents taught you or your, you know, your teacher? Where have you done it? And most importantly, where have you not done it? So where have you, where have you said I was going to do this and didn't do it? And and you might be going, well, why would I share a story about that? Because you'd normally, the story you share about that is normally a story of regret. Okay. So I, you know, I you can just sort of and and that can be really powerful. So it's the main thing before we even get to well, how do you actually tell a story well is being clear on the message and understanding what's the single-most message. I mean, I I I want to be known as integrity and being honest and doing the right thing. And I can actually t share a story with you when I was 12 and my best friend, we were in a milk bar and she dared me to steal a Kit Kat. And I did steal a Kit Kat from this milk bar owner. And it's if I look back on my life, that would be one of the things I regret. And so can you and can you see how the fact that you know, whatever, 12 years old, I'm still going, why did I do that? That clearly that went that goes against my values.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:08

Because if it didn't go against my values, you know what? I wouldn't even remember the story. So by me sharing that story, you probably get an idea of like, God, she is like, you know, doing the right thing is really important to her because she's still hung up about something she did when she was 12. So that's can you see how the power of the personal story? I I could share all these great stories about you, about me in business when I've done the right thing and I've done it, like, say what? Like, who cares? You know, that that starts to feel like bragging.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

This is so rich. Because now you have me thinking about when I was in high school and I asked five boys to the prom and they all said no. And so I I went stag. I went, I I took myself as a date.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

To the channel. And I had a wonderful time. And I love telling that story because to me that that it's not a story of regret, but it's like, yeah, that's that's the kind of person that I am. Like, I'll just show you.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

Absolutely, absolutely. So so let's take that story. So, first of all, what just happened here is exactly the power of story. I've shared a story and it's made you think of your your own stories. So that's what we do. But if I would say, you know, share that story, to me, that is a great story you could share about like resilience and persistence and independence. Like, so you know, whatever you want to do is let's like I, you know, and so clearly that so what that story is showing me about you, yeah, you you'll try to go the normal, you know, route of, oh yeah, you asked someone to the prom and they said no, but I asked another one. Like, how many people would ask five people to go? So, first of all, it's like you've got stamina, girl, you're going there. And then when it didn't work out, you went, Well, what the hell? I'll just take myself.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

It was like, You've got you've got bloody Miley Cyrus, I can buy myself flowers written all over you, girl.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

This is great. I I love this unexpected angle into telling uh stories about your values, and I can see how that makes executives personable, relatable, which is powerful, which is which is how they grow their influence.

SPEAKER_04 16:21

Absolutely. It's it's and when you think about promoting, like getting promoted, I'll I'll share an example of a client that I worked with. She was going, she was quite senior, but then she was going for very more senior risk roles, and and they involved a lot of risk. And her name is Catherine, and she she was she was quite tiny in nature, she was like really short, and not that that should have anything to do with it, but you're walking in a room of you know, senior executive men mostly, and Catherine walks in. And she'd actually been she'd actually been of ill health like a couple of years ago, and she said to me, I feel like when I'm going for the jobs, I'm not getting them because they don't think I'm up to it. They they've and it but she goes, it might be coming from a place of compassion, but because I've been sick, they think it might be too much for me and they're not taking the they just don't think I'm up to it. And so I helped her with some stories. And so the story she started to, well, she only shared it once in an interview because she got the job. She the story she shared was, and I'll try to do it justice, I haven't shared it for ages, is you know, 10 years ago I was scuba diving off the coast of Mexico, right? Okay, so first of all, hello, great start to a story. And in the story, she talked about, you know, we went out, she was a professional scuba diver and they went out and they got caught, they they went down, they got caught in a rip. So she goes, me and one other person was got caught in this rip. And and she went, it went for kilometers. And when they surfaced, her her buddy started to panic. So she tied her buddy to her, you know, told him lowered, they raised as fast as they could without safely, and they got to the top and they could not see the boat anywhere. There was no sign of the boat. And then she said the waves were smashing over us, and we, you know, held like I held him up and helped help him, and you know, the boat finally came and picked him up. And I like, again, I'm not doing the story justice. But she then she shared that story and she goes, I I know this job will, you know, have risk and it will be way waves will be coming, but you know, I know, I know I'm up for the task. And so by sharing a story about nothing related to work, because I mean she had all the work stories, like the credibility of work was there. That wasn't the issue. But it's the story of like, oh my God, you went surfing off the like, and then it's like, okay, you're pretty tough. You're pretty tough, and you've got this. So that's what the personal stories can do, can show that this isn't. I'm just not saying this because it's a work interview. This this is this is in me. Like, you know, your prom story. It was like, I'll find a way. Like, you know, can you imagine if the thing is like, don't worry, I'll find a way, I'll get it done, and you tell the prom story.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Wow, that is really powerful. And I talk about metaphors with my clients. So people think I'm not up for the job, right? That that is an embodied metaphor that she's she can easily personalize because she can us she can relate to being perceived as the smaller person, the shorter person in the room. And so by telling that story and ending it with, I'm up for the job, but she completely turned that that perception around. Yeah, that's really powerful. And in negotiation, we call that you know, calling out the pink elephant in the room. She did that with us.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

Yeah. And so so the reason that happened, the reason she could do that, because we worked on what's the message and what what so first of all, what would why she knew why she wasn't getting the jobs, and it was like they don't think I'm up for it. And I go, right, so now we get we we find a story about that and and and deliberately end it that way to say, you know, I I'm up for it. So so yeah, it's it's getting clear on the message, it's finding the most appropriate story. But Jamie, what I find is a lot of people would go, oh well, like like I couldn't tell the prom story. Like that's like that's like no one would be interested in that, or no one's like, it's not really professional. And they they shy away from telling those stories, but those personal stories related to your business message are the most powerful stories you can share, but but yet they're the most underutilized stories.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Yes, totally. So tell us more because you know, stories are so human, right? They make the human come alive, they ignite the human imagination, and yet your latest best-selling book is about making us telling made smarter with AI.

SPEAKER_04 21:10

I know, okay. So, so uh it may seem contradictory because uh this is uh my of this is my eighth book I've written on real communication and storytelling. And my previous book was about four years ago, and I was totally convinced that I would never write another book on storytelling because you know there's only so much you can write about it. But I had I had more and more people in my workshop say, So do you think AI will replace storytelling? And I was actually horrified by this question. It was like, why are you even asking? No, no, AI will not replace storytelling. And then I had more and more people say, Can you use AI to help with your stories? And my initial response was no, because I sort of thought, well, that's a bit cheating, and then it won't be real and stuff like that. So I started to experiment and What I've found is that AI-generated stories were disturbingly good. I'm not say surprise. I was surprised, but I was disturbed more than surprise. But they were missing something. And what they were missing was what you spoke about then, that human connection. So I truly believe that our authentic stories, authentic being the key word here, are needed now more than ever in a world of AI-generated content. So AI generated content, if we're you, if we're using it incorrectly, if we're overusing it, we're actually being lazy. And we're all starting to sound the same. And it just blends, it just blurs and blends into like the sameness. And people say people have said to me, but you know, I do use AI to help write, you know, my content and stories, you know, not necessarily stories, but general content. And they say it's really efficient. I go, it might be efficient, but is it effective? And surely when it comes to communicating, we're about effectiveness. So I actually felt compelled to write this book. It was it's probably the first business book I felt compelled to write. Like as in, I I need to write this, because the premise of the book is that our stories are needed now more than ever in a world of distrust and in a world of AI-generated content. But AI is not the enemy. So if you use AI wisely, it can be your, it can almost act as your storytelling coach and creative partner. So, you know, Jamie, if you were looking for a story on integrity, I would ask you all these questions about, well, when was it like I did before? Like when was the time you didn't do what you said you were going to do? Or, you know, and so you could use AI for that to say, hey, I'm looking for a story on innovation and I want it to be a personal story. Can you ask me questions to help uncover some personal stories? And it will ask you questions. So there's a whole chapter in the book about how to use AI in storytelling, but ultimately, story intelligence, the book, is a stor is a book on storytelling. It's just a little bit how you can use AI. But if you're going to use AI, please don't give AI control. Please don't lose your voice in the process because it it won't it won't serve you. If you're sort of if you're getting AI to help you refine stories and you go, oh, that sounds good, it may sound good, but does it sound like you? It's like it doesn't sound like you, so don't use it.

SPEAKER_03 24:29

And now you can tell. You can now I get it. You can so tell. You can totally tell when you see AI slop.

SPEAKER_04 24:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

You can easily tell when it's AI generated image and it's just too perfect. Yeah. Like no human space is actually that perfectly symmetrical. No. And then you could also tell when when you get content, it's like it's written with just like GPT. Yeah, yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_04 24:56

I mean, yeah, it's all these. I it's so literally just before we got on to speak, I I was I had to, I was filling out a form, like actually to go on another podcast, and they said in you know, two sentences describe what you do. So I literally said, you know, I teach people how to communicate more effectively through stories, and then I talked about the book. So it was like two or three sentences. And I I'm a shocking speller, right? So I I I would always put everything through a spell check, but now I sort of put it through Chat GPT, and I do say, can you just edit this? So not review it, but sometimes it thinks it knows better. And it came back and it was said, you know, I teach people storytelling that bridges the gap between realness and blah. And it was like, oh my God, talk like that, right? And so I just I just ignored it. And but you have to have, you have to like, I think sometimes we can go, well, that sounds good, but I I would never say that. Like I would never, you know, it bridges the gap between blah blah and blah blah. It was like, oh my god, if those words come out of my mouth, just shoot me now. And so you just don't use it. So you've got to, you've got to be use it as a a little a bit of input, but one input, like you know, if you had a team of 10 people, it's just one of your team. You're not gonna listen to everyone.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

I I mean, I'm I'm similar to you. I I do like having the LLM help me copy edit, or if I get like stuck on a phrasing, like help me come up with like three different options, and then I pick and choose, and then it like generates a new you know, idea, and then I'm like, that's not it, and then I like rewrite it. So like there's a back and forth. It's it's what I think what you're saying is we use it as a tool, but we don't let it totally co-opt the creative.

SPEAKER_04 26:50

Yeah. I you use it as I I also like use it as your creative partner. I was actually in the book, I was inspired by. Have you have you read Elizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic that and talked about her letter to fear? Yeah, yeah. So she writes a letter to fear. And if you like, she talks about being in the driver's seat. So I was sort of inspired by that. So I I wrote a letter to AI, and it is it is about that. It was like, you know, we're going on a road trip, you can come along, I will ask you for your input. But the basics of the poem that is that, or the letter is that you will never ever be in control, and you will never be in the driver's seat. And you've got to you you've got to be disciplined around that because it is so easy to go, oh yeah, that sounds all right, and you've put it out there, and it's just you you're jet you're contributing to the AI generated slop that's out there.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Right. Right. Yeah. So many thoughts on this, but yes, to using it as a tool, not letting it completely co-op and take over the driver's seat. And could you share with us maybe one of the tips or like an actionable insight that that you wrote about in the book?

SPEAKER_04 28:08

Yeah. Okay. Let me share you some really simple tips around storytelling. So we've talked about get really clear on the message, find a personal story. Now, you can use words. I I talk about four different types of stories in the book. One's one of them's personal. And I do focus on that because it's the, like I said, it's the most undergutilized. So when it comes to storytelling, let me give you a few little tips around when it comes to sharing your story. The way you start your story is with time and place. So it's one sentence. Like, you know, when when I when I was a kid, I grew up on a farm, for example, right? That's time and place. So look, my the story I shared before with Catherine, you know, 10 years ago, I was scuba diving off the coast of Mexico. That's it. One sentence. Don't don't need to know what coast of Mexico, don't don't don't need to know specifics. Start with that. The what the worst way to start your story is let me tell you a story. Can you sort of see? I just saw your face, Jamie. It was like, it's like, please don't. And and that's what our reaction is, just you know, just don't. So start with time and place, not let me tell you a story. Never start with let me tell you a true story, because your stories that implies that some of your stories are not true. And that that's probably another tip. Make sure your stories need to be true. Absolutely 100% true. It's not worth the backlash to your credibility if they're not. So the way you start the story is really important. And I'd rather say the other tip is keep your story super succinct. So I would say 60 seconds, 60 to 90 seconds is probably ideal. They can be shorter, like you could tell a great little 30-second story, but if your stories are getting to two minutes, people will start thinking, get to the point. And the moment anyone starts thinking get to the point, you're losing them. They're disengaging. So so super succinct, 60 seconds, and and don't start with let me tell you a story. And don't, I'll throw in another one. Don't end with the moral of the story is. Don't end with that.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

Okay. So the moral of the story should be self-evident.

SPEAKER_04 30:16

It should be self-evident. You don't want to be taint the moral of the story. You you could, you could, you could sort of say something like, the lesson I learnt from that was the importance of persistence, for example. But so, but that's about you. You don't, you know, when people go the moral of the story is what that is, is I'm telling you what the meaning of the story is. When when the real skill is you want to let the allow them to understand the message without you being directive. And that and that's that's probably what one of the hardest bits of storytelling in business.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

I'm really fascinated, and I want to learn more how the authentic storytelling can be made even better, made even smarter with AI. Do you also share like specific prompts that you can give AI in your book?

SPEAKER_04 31:09

Yeah, yeah. So uh, like first of all, there's a whole chapter in there of me just doing questions. So it's it's how you get the story. But it it's also so first of all, and and it's also when you're using AI to help refine your story, you've got to be going, oh, that didn't happen, but actually that happened, and you put that in. Talking about how you really felt in that situation, like I felt really proud of myself, or you know, it that that keeps it authentic. But you know, there there are you could also use AI to sort of say, okay, I've I've got this story, and perhaps you're thinking, but it feels a bit bragging. It feels like, or you know, you like if I feel like I'm blaming others, for example. Can you help me rewrite it? Can you ask me questions so it it comes across more humble, for example? And just again, you use it as your coach, use it as your storytelling coach. So again, that that will help your stories be more authentic. But you you don't want to fall into the trap of going, okay, please make this story uh less braggy and more humble, and it it throws out these suggestions and you go, oh yeah, that sounds good, but but did it happen? And you know, if you go, well, no, it didn't happen, but it sounds good, it's like, no, no, don't do it, don't use it. What happened? So again, resist that temptation of it sounds good, because if it's not true, and if it doesn't sound like you, it's again, you're contributing to AI slop and you're becoming bland and you know, beige like all the other AI-generated content.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

And then I I'm betting that's where the human-to-human connection comes back in, because once you've written the story, you want to test it by sharing the story with another human. Not test it, but like well, you do want to test it.

SPEAKER_04 32:59

No, so you you certainly want to practice it. So and I would say practice it out loud. And again, if you've used AI to help, practice it out loud because if you're practicing out loud and it's things like it bridges the gap between blah, blah, and you know, I would never say that, then don't say it. So practice it out loud. And you could practice, you know, practice at home with your partner, your kids, and if they understand the message, then it's probably working. But yeah, that's it's it it's interesting. When I started to experiment with AI stories, and I sort of said they were surprisingly good, but they were missing something, and what they were missing was that authenticity and realness. I I actually, as part of the process of writing the book, tested. I I wrote six stories about six subjects. I got Chat GPT and Claude to write six, so there were 18 stories in total. And I asked people to rate them on all these different things like clarity, did it make sense, did it feel real, was it memorable? And what so it didn't surprise me. The results came back generally most of the time, my stories were better. In what in one case, like the AI-generated stories, they were rated better, which you know that took, I had to have a little bit of an ego trip for that. But the but the what my tests showed what I knew, people rated the AI stories like clear. They were clear, they made sense, but they didn't feel real. And they and because there was there was things in there, and you just go, doesn't, that just doesn't feel real. Like I remember I remember one story, uh it was either AI chat GPT or Claude generated, and it was talking about, you know, a person was really scared of speaking, and I I didn't want to speak, and then the the manager, my manager was looking for someone to do this presentation, and he was, you know, as someone who's afraid of pay public speaking, you don't want to be picked, but you secretly hope you get picked. And I'm thinking that does not happen. Like if anyone's scared of public speaking, no one secretly hopes they get picked. Like, no one ever. And you just go, well, that's bullshit. So it's not, you know, not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

Right, because AI doesn't have embodied experience, it doesn't have lived knowledge, it has just the algorithmic pattern recognition function for putting words together in a particular sequence that you know adheres to a certain certain prob probability. Okay, now I'm just rambling, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:31

No, but you're right. And so the the point is you're reading it and you're yeah, it sort of makes sense. I understand the message, but it just doesn't feel real. And because it's not, because it's not real.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

Right, not real, yeah. Yeah, so where can people go to learn more about your work and this great book?

SPEAKER_04 35:50

Yeah, okay. So my website, GabriellDolan.com, but I'm very active on LinkedIn. So connect with me on LinkedIn, and my book Story Intelligence is available, you know, on like Amazon online or the usual sp suspects. And so, yeah, so everything, everything, my last 20 years I know about storytelling is in this book because Jamie, I promise you this will be the last book I write on storytelling, unlike I thought, or clearly never say never, but my my whole career is in this book.

SPEAKER_03 36:22

Wow. Is there anything else we haven't yet addressed that you want to make sure you do share with the listeners?

SPEAKER_04 36:32

I would just on a final note say an okay story is better than no story. So even if you think your story's not perfect, and you know, the reality is when we're not aiming for perfection, you know, what what we're aiming for is connection there. Oh God, that sounded a bit AI-ish. We're not about perfection, we're about connection. That was me. But an okay story is better than no story. And and really explore how you can share a non-related, a non-business related story, as in something that didn't happen at work, it happened in your personal life, and how you connect it to a business message and especially around one of your own values.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

Yes. Thank you so much, Gabrielle. It was a pleasure speaking with you, learning about storytelling, and I'm gonna go tell more people about me asking five voice to the prom. I'm gonna keep trying to remember.

SPEAKER_04 37:33

Yeah, you just make sure you follow the framework there, you know. Yes, so it's like, you know, literally, you know, how old were you when you how old were the prom? Is that like about 17 or something? Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

Yes. 17 year olds old.

SPEAKER_04 37:49

17 year olds needed a date for the prong, asked five boys. Then after the fifth rejection, I thought, you know what, I'm just go by myself. And then you talk a little bit about how much fun you had, and blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, and what that taught me was the importance of persistence.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Persistence. Asking even if you get a no.

SPEAKER_04 38:11

Yeah. Just keep finding another. And and so again, you lend it. What was it what that taught me about? You know, there's always we know where there's a will, there's a way. There's always a way you can do it.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

Yes, yes. Yeah. Thank you, excellent, Gabrielle.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Thank you, Jamie. Thank you for joining me today on Risky Conversations. And remember, everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. To find out how to navigate those risks without playing the politics game, come on over to jamieleecoach.com, J-A-M-I-E-L-E-E-C-O-A-C.com. And take my quirky but fun and quick leadership archetype quiz and discover your secret weapon for self-advocacy. And while you're there, you can explore over a hundred plus stories of women who got brave, bolder, and better paid. And you can also book a private consultation with me so we can get started on getting you promoted on your own terms.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

We'll talk soon.