SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hello, I'm Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics. And I help them get promoted and better paid without throwing anyone under the bus. How? By blending proven communication strategies with brain-shifting neuroscience techniques. In this podcast, we explore the stories and strategies of gutsy women who've braved speaking up and navigated their careers forward. We're here to de-risk the conversations that feel the most daunting, advocating for yourself and your growth. Let's dive in. Welcome to Risky Conversations with Jamie Lee. I'm Jamie Lee. And why risky conversations? Because everything that's worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. I'm really excited to have my good friend Maria Lernerman. I met Maria because, as an executive coach, I also continuously try to learn and improve my skills. And in that process of me, you know, trying to improve my own skills, coaching skills, I met Maria in one of the containers that I have joined. And Maria is a professional investor working in the asset management industry by day, but she's also a hypno-birthing educator, hypnotist, lactation counselor, and mom of three by night. It's so impressive. Just before we hit record, I'm like, how do you do it all?

SPEAKER_01 1:42

I do the best I can, Jamie, like we all do, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:45

That's right. We just do the best we can. And I think one of the risky conversations that we can have is asking questions about things that we don't know. And I also love that you're a hypno-birthing educator. We're gonna learn everything about that today. But I can imagine that it has a lot to do with women's health. And as somebody who teaches self-advocacy skills, and somebody who, you know, wants to continuously wants to improve her own self-advocacy, for me, the lately, the biggest area in my life where I really had to advocate for myself was around my own health. And as a woman, as a as a person of color, as an immigrant, somebody who's got you know chronic issues, like speaking up for myself in my own health is is a total game changer. And so I'm really glad that you're here to talk about something that is very unique to women, but also very, very interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

And and the way self-advocacy is so, so important.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yes, self-advocacy, so important. Yes. So before we dive into hypnobirthing, I want to learn everything about that. I'm curious, what was one of the riskiest conversations that you've had in your career or in your life, and why was that risky conversation worth it for you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

I I love that question. The good stuff is on the other side. I think it's such a Jamie question to me. Because I, you know, and all the time I've known you, you're an amazing listener, but you also like you have these questions that like shake people out of the ordinary. So I I bet your clients really appreciate it. So I think not necessarily the riskiest conversation I had, but something that is applicable to what we're talking about here. And that's sharing something of myself with people within kind of more narrow professional relationships. So I've been in the investment industry for many, many, many years in different positions, but I'm also a mom. I've been a mentor and I've provided sort of career guidance and advice for younger women. I love the outdoors. I want to share these things with people that I work with. And these things aren't so difficult to share. Now, hypnobirthing, which is something that I've been teaching for two years now, manga and method hypnobirthing, it's a little bit harder to share, or it was harder to share for me at first. And it's not the birth part so much as much as the hypnosis part. Because to me, you know, it's a therapeutic modality that's really valuable. It is a very valuable part of the program that I'm teaching, very practical, that gives expecting parents tools to improve the chances to have that birth that they want to have, to improve their outcomes, right? To even advocate better for themselves. But that's not how everyone thinks about it. And so I can't control what people's perceptions are. And so it's a little bit of risk, I think. Not the riskiest thing to share about oneself for sure, but a little bit of risk. So I think there are two things I've realized. First thing that when I share something like this, it has to come from a place of comfort for me. Because if I'm not comfortable with it, how can I expect the person on the other side to be comfortable with it? And some still will be, but you know, I have to go there first.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

And the second thing I've learned is that sharing something like this, it helps to start from a shared space of values, common values, common understandings. So people who work in the investment industry love to learn. They are all about self-improvement and continuous learning and improvement, right? About they understand the importance of managing emotions and the role that emotions play in outcomes in lives. They appreciate the importance of nervous system regulation and emotional regulation. So those are like shared values that I can build on when I'm talking about how hypnosis is used in birth.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

I love that. You know, I started as a negotiation trainer, and as I became an executive coach, I realized exactly what you just said. It's about emotional regulation, nervous system regulation, so that you can have more agency in creating tangible results, whether that's giving birth or making decisions about investments, about trading decisions, right? About asset allocation. Like all of those things are so crucial to things that we do consciously, right? But it's the unconscious level that many people just sort of overlook because it is unconscious, because it is hidden out of view. And for the same reason, I did similar trainings that Maria did, because I wanted to be able to equip myself and my clients with the best tools possible so that they can have, you know, they can have this ripple effect and they can feel the change, not just from like, oh, I have to do these things, but like, oh, I feel differently as I move about making those decisions, taking those actions, and generating different results in my career and life. So what I'm hearing is talking about hypnobirthing is a risky conversation, but when we come from that shared place of that shared values of, hey, we understand that when we can manage ourselves, not just consciously, but from the unconscious level better, more effectively, we can create even better results.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

I'm not sure that everyone would buy into your frame of conscious and unconscious management, but I think that people can understand that when we manage our state, we get different outcomes, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

So it's probably saying the same thing, but it's just using the language that that people can relate to easily.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Yes, yes. And I also felt it's kind of risky for me to like, hey, I've been teaching negotiation leadership skills, and now I also want to let you know I've trained as a hypnotist. I remember, I remember going through that experience a couple of years ago when I certified, but people were like really fascinated. People are like, really, tell me more. Is it like speech hypnosis? Is it like is it like this? Is it like that? Is it kind of scary? And people sort of lean in and they're like, Oh, tell me more, you know, because they they know lots of coaches, but they haven't always met a trained hypnotist. Yeah, yeah, cool. So tell us about hypnobirthing. So in my practice, I sort of combine hypnosis and self-advocacy and confidence for professional women, and you combine it for hypnobirthing. So what is that? What is hypnobirthing?

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yeah, so the hypnobirthing method I teach is the Mongen method hypnobirthing, which is the original hypnobirthing method that's been around for about 35 years. And it uses hypnosis as part of the program. But it really is a complete birth preparation program. So we start with pregnancy nutrition and we talk about lactation at the end of the class, and we talk about postpartum and taking care of ourselves once the baby arrives. So the program was created originally to allow parents to have more comfortable, calmer, more connected births, often without use of medication. So almost 80% of moms who deliver vaginally who have gone through the hypnobirthing program end up not using an epidural. But the program is also great for parents who just come in and they're just looking to have less fear. It's great for parents who know they're going to have a surgical birth, but they just want to feel more grounded during pregnancy. They want to be more present, they want to advocate for themselves better. Advocacy is a really important part of the program. And to have just better experiences, whether it's, you know, during C-section, postpartum, whatever. So my goal is to for them to lead the program excited, looking forward to birth, you know, confident in their ability to navigate not just birth, but also the healthcare system in the US to make decisions, to work as a team. So it's really important that it's not just targeting moms, right? It's really working with mom and dad, and you know, and baby, mom, dad, and baby. You know, in breastfeeding, there's this notion of the breastfeeding diet, meaning that mom and baby. So when something is not going quite right, you want to figure out how mom and baby work together, like what is what is going on in that relationship. So in hypnobirthing, I work with families because I find that when partners come in, they often don't have a vision necessarily for what this birth would look like. They don't really have necessarily a good feel for what their role in this is. And so they come in typically really eager, but kind of like, tell me how I do this. And as they go through the program, they become really strong, they get on the same page, they become really strong advocates for birthing people for moms, and they have the tools to make moms more relaxed. They learn hands-on tools like doing light touch massage, things like that. So they're really, really participating, they're all in it together. So that's a little bit of an introduction.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Yeah. And so what I'm learning is that hypnobirthening isn't just for expensive expectant mothers, it's really for the whole family.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's not just for, so a lot of the parents I work with are first-time parents, but not everyone is. Some people come in and they had a traumatic past experience. So over a third of people who give birth find that experience to have been traumatic. And so they're just looking for something better for an experience where they are in control, where you know, it's just a different experience. Or sometimes it doesn't even have to be a traumatic experience. I worked with someone for whom it was a third pregnancy. She had the first two, they were natural birth, they went reasonably well. But she said, you know, Maria, but it wasn't joyful. Like I want this one to be joyful. And it was.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, what's really fascinating to me as a childless single woman who's nearing peramenopause, who is so sensitive that I I tried some medication earlier this year, and it got me so sick that it knocked me off my feet for close to two months. And so the when you say hypnobirthing helps mothers give birth without medication, I'm like, what? That is super cool. Because then that makes you know pregnancy and motherhood so much more accessible for people who, you know, maybe like me, have uh sensitive systems who can't tolerate medication. Tell us, like, how is that even possible? How what is it about you know the combination of hypnosis and the training that enables mothers to give birth without medication?

SPEAKER_01 14:04

So actually, our body knows how to give birth for healthy moms having healthy pregnancies, carrying healthy babies. Yeah, in most cases, these moms can it this is not a medical event, right? This is something that our bodies know how to do. Yeah, and when parents aren't bringing fear, when they aren't bringing tension into birth, they can be much more comfortable because all the things that you want to happen in birth, you know, you want unfolding, you want opening, you want muscles working, like uterine muscles working together. There's a set of muscles that relaxes during during labor and birth. And so when people are coming into this with the tools to stay deeply relaxed and connected to their body, connected to their baby, connected to the process, they're much more comfortable because our bodies produce natural chemicals, they produce endorphins to keep us more comfortable in this process when it's not rushed, when it's not interfered, when there are no interventions. And so, like our body just knows how to do this. So, my job isn't to like teach you how to be superhuman. It's like my job is to make you realize that being human is super. It's not my quote.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Oh, that's we haven't heard that in a while. Wait, that's so good. That's so good. Wait, I want you to say it one more time because that's gonna be a poll quote, right? So, your job is not to teach people to be superhuman, it's for you to teach them that being human is super. Yes, oh, that's so good. I love that because I was thinking about as you were saying that, like thinking about the ramifications of that, of learning, oh yeah, my body already knows how to be present, how to do this world-changing thing of creating another consciousness, yeah. And if you can be present and joyful through something that many people experience as trauma, I mean, what else could you not do? Right, you can show up to board presentations, you can pitch yourself, you can, you know, do so you can you can make a you know so much happen in your life.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Absolutely, absolutely. Like for me, after my first birth, because uh we didn't talk about it, but I was initially terrified. I sort of really grown pretty quickly, changed my mind, had a natural birth with my son who was turning 17 this year, and like I just felt like I was on top of the world and I felt like I could do anything. And those first two weeks were pretty tough. We didn't have a lot of help, but like I it just carried me through. Like I know I can do this, and like it it's something that stayed with me, right? It stayed with me throughout my career, throughout my life. You know, there's this pretty well-known doula trainer, and she says, You will always remember the day. I'm I'm pretty sure I'm quite close to her quote, but it's probably not exact. And she says, You'll always remember the day you gave birth when you're 90 and you don't remember what you had for dinner last night, you'll remember your birthday like it was yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Right. And if that could be a powerful, empowering memory of like this is what I can do, yeah. I I want that for people.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Incredible. So tell us more about that. So you said the first two weeks of your pregnancy or the first two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Oh, the first two postpartum.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Postpartum, and you felt do anything. And then what led to you encountering hypnobirthing after that?

SPEAKER_01 17:58

So when I was first pregnant with my with my son, right, I had a great pregnancy, but I was terrified of giving birth. And I had I happened to have a conversation with a friend who was also pregnant, and she said, I'm gonna have a natural birth in the birth center. And I was like, I was one of these people who I now warn my students about. I was like, No, that's terrible, it's never gonna work. Like, what do you have choices? I was so mad. I was like, You have choices, why would you do that to yourself? And she said, I have choices, then that's why I'm doing it, because it's better for me and it's better for my baby. And she got me curious enough that I started learning, I started researching, and then I was like, I kind of started buying into it. And then we signed up for natural birth class, and then I had my son, and it was amazing, and you know, all that. I didn't encounter, it wasn't hypnobirthing, I didn't encounter hypnobirthing until my third one. Because we had a long break and we decided we'll just go back into class. And that's when I encountered hypnobirthing techniques. So, and interestingly enough, so and I thought at some point, like I after every baby, I was like, I just really want to share this with people. I just really want to share this with people, and especially when I would hear stories of people with births were nothing like mine, where they felt like I they didn't know what was going on, they felt just powerless, they felt like it was out of control, like it wasn't a good experience. And it was like it like every time I would think about it, I was like, I I just I just want to come back and and do this, right? And the last conversation I had, it was it's almost kind of like you're standing there with I had a hot colleague who used this metaphor and I really loved it. She told me she used it in decision-making description. She said, when you're making a decision, it's like you're standing there with scales and the sandstorm. And then that last you know, drop of sand that happens to like fall on one side of the scales is what tips it over. And I was I was in an Uber driving, it was like a long drive at night, and we were talking. And the Uber driver, she was a woman, she was retired, her husband recently passed away. And so we were talking about her life, and then she started talking about her pregnancy and breastfeeding and all the bad things that have happened to her, and like she still was hurt by that. And it was kind of like the last story that for whatever reason I was like, that's it. I I'm gonna teach now. And then when I looked up who was certifying, because I was looking at two programs potentially. Hypnobirthing had uh hypnobirthing institute had something coming up in six days. I was like, that's it, that's what I'm gonna teach.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Incredible, incredible, yeah. So what was your experience with your third child because you had the hypnobirthing skills? Like, do you do you require a hypnotist in the birthing room, or does the mother learn to hypnotize herself, or is it something completely different?

SPEAKER_01 21:07

So you do not require a hypnotist in the birthing room. That's good to know. Yes. So we teach self-hypnosis skills, and then we also do certain hypnotic processes in the classroom, and we do them in the classroom. I sound like a teacher in in our sessions, right? And the goal is to one get people used to getting really relaxed very quickly and creating kind of like a pathway, right? Neural pathway to getting to that deep relaxed state.

unknown 21:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

So that's one of the things we do. We visualize the future, we visualize what that birth could look like for both partners and how could they be present at that experience, right? We create that. We release fears. So we go through a process for people to explore and understand you know what beliefs, what fears, what thoughts come up for them. And people are sometimes very surprised at things that come up. And then we go through a process of people being willing to just let go of that and move on without this, move on without this fear in, you know, in into birth. So those are the different kinds of things we do. And then we teach self-hypnosis, where it just really simple things where people learn to just go deeper, deeper relaxed. People learn relaxation techniques where they can create an area of relaxation that can move that relaxation around their body. Just different techniques for both moms pregnant, you know, birthing people to do it on themselves as well as for their partners to facilitate it.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

So fascinating. So you I also teach my clients similar skills, and because some of our trainings have overlapped, me and Maria's. And what I do is I take elements of what you just talked about, self-hypnosis, you know, rehearsing the future, releasing fears. And using these elements, I help my clients anchor that to their executive presence when they are the only woman or one of the very few women in leadership. And they just want to feel more calm. They want to feel more grounded even when there is conflict and difference of opinion and stress and you know, growing list of to-dos. It's like you can still right. It's not about like you're you're in a trance and you can't focus. It's like, no, you're grounded and even more alert and capable of being adaptable, flexible, you know, present, alive in the moment. So that's what I'm hearing. Yeah, yeah. So that is so cool. And and as somebody who has learned similar skills, I'm still like, oh my goodness, this is so fun and fascinating. I I want to learn, I'm I don't I don't have plans to be pregnant anytime soon, but I'm like, that sounds fascinating because you can imagine, just as I as I shared, you can imagine all the different ways that can become like a meta skill that you can apply to different areas of your life.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Absolutely. Absolutely. So whether it's conflict and to-do lists in in the case of your clients or you know, hectic, maybe hectic hectic hospital space with sound and lights. And I mean, we talk about how to create the environment. You can't, but you can't always have that ideal environment. And no matter what the environment looks like, you know, I I my wish, my intention for everyone going through the program is to be grounded, connected, in control, creating that own like bubble around themselves to have that experience that they want to have.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Right. Because you don't need to be superhuman, you just need to remember that being human is super. And as you were saying that, I was thinking about how in my experience I had these uh mystery chronic illness symptoms. And every time I went to the doctors, certain doctors, I would just feel kind of dismissed or you know, ignored and almost you know, humiliated in a sense. And so imagine how powerful it is to not get swept away by, you know, like you said, like the blinking sounds and you know the US medical system. So you give more power back to the family who's yes, who's adding consciousness to the world. That's how I like to think about you know, giving birth. You're like you're creating more consciousness. So can you share with us a surprising client success story?

SPEAKER_01 26:03

So I think they're kind of all I don't know, so many of them are success stories, no matter what they look like. So true, that's many, right? Because many many moms will have an experience like they wanted to have. They're on a birth tub, they're with their partner, they have that natural birth that they planned for, right? And so, like, for example, I worked with a mom who on the first call with me, she said, So do you think it's even possible? I said, Yeah, I I think it's definitely possible. And she said, like, and you think like it's possible for me. And I was like, you know, it's possible for so many women, right? We can we never know what birth ends up looking like, yeah, but yes, if things go well, absolutely. And so after her birth, she sent me pictures of of them in the in the room, and the lights were dim, and it just looked so beautiful. And I said, like you look like a goddess of birth, because she really did. And she said, I felt like a goddess of birth. So, like there's stories like that, yeah, right, that I love, or stories of a mom who was she just used her relaxation skills and she went from two centimeters to ten centimeters in like two hours, and she didn't even realize like she didn't feel the passage of time. Wow, but but they're like stories of you know, dads who step up, which are really, really great. Like dads who come into the class going, oh I just hope I won't faint, and then they're advocating for moms, or they're creating space, yeah, or in like that's really really great for me to hear.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Or you know, I just got chill.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

I yeah, right, or like moms who get an induction, you know what? Some of them end up using medication because that's a different experience. But if they're able to keep themselves calmer, if they're having a better experience, I've worked with a couple of couples who were planning for surgical birth, and some of them had it like with music, with the relaxed environment, they like they had it on their own terms, they had skin to skin, right, after birth. And so, like to me, that's also a success story because there's not one right way of having birth, it's more you know, how was that experience for you? Were you in control? Did you feel listened to? Yeah, right. So like to me, that's the core of it.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Oh so good, I love it. I love it, you know, because I'm just imagining. I I remember when my nephew was born eight years ago and being in my sister's you know, hospital room and just encountering this fresh newborn baby, and it was just an explosion of love, you know, and empowering people to be even more present and aware and capable in those moments. It's it's it's really magical. I think the work you do is truly transformational, you know, for not just for the families, but for for the world, because the world needs humans. Humans who remember how super it is to be human.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

You know what's interesting? When I got trained, my instructor said, and a lot of our clients come back telling us that their babies are more mellow because moms had a, you know, it's perhaps because moms had a calmway pregnancy. I was like, I don't know about that. Okay. And now my clients come back and they say, Oh, my baby's so mellow. And someone recently asked me, is your third, is your youngest one different from the other two? And who knows the reason, but she actually is. She's just like this happy sunshine child. So that's you know, that's my experience. Small sample size, you know, I don't claim statistical significance, but it's interesting. Mina, maybe there's something to it. Maybe babies, when they have that, you know, experience of mom being calmer, more joyful, more connected in the pregnancy, feeling more in control.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yeah, you know. Wow. So, so cool. So, you know, do you have any suggestions or maybe advice for other women? And you know, several of my clients have done IVF as they were also trying to climb the corporate ladder, so to speak. And several of my clients, you know, they were planning to grow their family, and so I can imagine there are women who are listening to this and they're like, What? Hello birthing? This is really cool. This is the first time I'm learning about this. Or I found this podcast because I was searching, I was Googling it, and this came up, right? And they might be listening to this. So for those women and and their spouses of all genders, right? Do you have any word of advice for people who are just wanting to, you know, start planning for their family or hoping to give birth to like do you have a word of advice for them?

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Well, first, I I think I just want to send them my best wishes.

unknown 31:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

And, you know, best of luck. And by the way, if you ever just wanted to connect and talk about birth, even if you're not thinking of taking a program, I'm always happy, happy to connect. I think that giving yourself permission to explore and to change your mind to me is is really important. So, particularly, I've seen that with couples who have gone through IVF or who, you know, maybe who are older and whose provider said, Oh, you know, this is gonna be a high-risk thing, where they start working with the provider and then they realize, you know what, it's not a good, like I'm I one of the first couples I worked with, they would come into the office and their doctor would say, Oh, well, you're not out of the woods yet. You don't know how things are gonna go. And he was bringing so much fear. And he was well regarded, and so at first they weren't sure that they felt comfortable leaving that practice. But they ended up just going around and looking for a team that would work with them. And they ended up working with a team of midwife and OBGYN who worked together, and they had a very different experience coming into appointments, a lot more hope, you know, a lot more joy, whatever. And so just don't be afraid to look around to consider your options. Just because you've worked with someone at one point in your life and it was the right fit, doesn't mean that they're the right fit for birth for you.

unknown 33:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Choice. Remember, you have choice and you have options, and therefore you have agency. Yeah, awesome, awesome. And since you offered uh people to reach out and connect with you, where can people go to learn more, to connect and maybe read about your hypnobirthing program?

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Yeah, just go to my website, discoveryourpowerbirth.com. And also if you wanted to check out the mangan method, hypnobirthing, it's hypnobirthing.com. Pretty sure I got that correct, hypnobirthing.com. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

And if people wanted to just reach out and connect with you, will they find their contact information on the website?

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Yes. So there's just a form, you know, drop your contact information in. I get back to people quickly. And like I said, if you just want to, there'll there's a number of people who I talk to, and I say, Oh, they're these different programs and this is how they differ. And you know, sometimes they say, I think something else is a better fit for me, and that's completely fine.

unknown 34:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

So I'm always happy to chat.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Amazing, amazing. And I have had the incredible privilege of getting to do some practice sessions, not in hypnobirthing, but in in some of the high-level skills that support this. And I I can totally attest to Maria is a phenomenal practitioner. You know, she just has this amazing ability to be present with you and really just her, yeah, just like your presence is magical, I have to say. But but also on top of that, she has such great respect for for developing skill, for developing the acuity to support people's transformational process. So again, even though I'm not a mother, I I can imagine like her hypnobirthing, you know, the training skills are just through the roof. So thank you so much. I appreciate it, Jamie.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Thank you so much. This was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Yes, this is a lot of fun. So we kind of had a risky conversation about, you know, something that a lot of people don't address in the open, especially the professional realm, because it's almost as if women's health is like a taboo topic when it comes to people who are also serious about their career. But I love that also, Maria, that you are a living, walking example of like who's got a career, you know, and you can do something really cool on the side that that you know changes lives. So, so yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much, Jamie. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for joining me today on Risky Conversations. Remember, everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. And when done well, your self-advocacy becomes an act of service. If you're ready to de-risk your own career evolution, I invite you to book a free hour-long consultation at jameleecoach.com slash apply. J-A-N-I-E-L-E-E-C-O-A-C-H dot com slash apply. We'll map out your custom blueprint to confidence and get you on the path to being better paid on your own terms. Let's make your next conversation the one that changes everything. Talks in the