SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hello, I'm Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics. And I help them get promoted and better paid without throwing anyone under the bus. How? By blending proven communication strategies with brain-shifting neuroscience techniques. In this podcast, we explore the stories and strategies of gutsy women who've braved speaking up and navigated their careers forward. We're here to de-risk the conversations that feel the most daunting, advocating for yourself and your growth. Let's dive in. Welcome to Risky Conversations. My name is Jamie Lee, and I'm super thrilled to have my guest, Allie Irwin, on the podcast because we're going to have one of the most riskiest conversations. I mean, it can't get riskier than this.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

That's right. And also, yeah. We were just talking about death.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

We're going to talk about death. We're going to talk about dying because you know what? Every single one of us ages and dies. And it's like this fundamental truth that the American, you know, Western society, we love to just put it aside. We love to just pretend it's not there. We just love to pretend like we never die.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

If we buy the right creams on Amazon Prime Day, we can just avoid it altogether.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Exactly. If we just buy the right products, buy the right hype. And you know, there were all these influencers, right? I saw it on my social media feed the other day that one of these influencers who was all about extending your life and avoiding illness, he came down with an autoimmune disease. It's incurable. Oh, I haven't heard that. Yeah. So again, we all die, we all age, but we all pretend like it doesn't happen. So I think the riskiest conversation we can have is like, you know, what if we accepted this as a truth, as truth of life and not avoid it? And Ali is an amazing person who helps people do that with so much courage and heart. I'm so happy you're here. And before Ali became a coach and a hypnotist, she spent a decade as an engineer. She's trained to map an entire system before touching a single part. And when her husband got a surprise stage four cancer diagnosis, she turned her brain on the problem most people avoid. How do I prepare for life without him or her or them, your beloved, your partner, your spouse, emotionally and financially, right? Every account, password, responsibility that were that was you know, theirs. That was for you, that was his. And treasure map is Ali, Ali's product, and it was born of Ali's belief that preparedness is an act of care. And I I want to say, I want to add, preparedness is an act of service. Preparedness is an act of advocating for yourself, embracing life, embracing death as part of life.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

So it's even an act of freedom. Because if all these things are in place, yeah, then you're free to just go live your life. You these decisions are made, and it's not that you don't revision them again, but there is a freedom in talking about all the things that we don't normally want to talk about, you know, that weighs on us. I'm realizing now that I've that I had all those conversations with my partner of 30 plus years, that there was a freedom once we had that all taken care of.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

And when I last met you in person, Ali, last August, your partner had just passed. And because you had done this work, you showed up and you were there and you were present. We hugged, we cried together, but you lived your life. You were with your friends, and we were, you know, we were doing like business planning for other coaches, you know, and you were there. And I and you know, it gives me chills and it kind of makes me want to cry to like remember that. But I mean, that you're showing us with your life, with your example, that it is possible to live with freedom and care.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

You know, you make a really good point there because most people don't understand the crushing load of decisions that comes right away. Some mortuary put out this study that said there's 86 decisions you have to make in that first week, that like very initial time period. And I think part of the reason I was able to be out in the world with my friends so quickly is most of those decisions had already been made. We had so many things in place that I wasn't at home kind of hiding under a mountain of paperwork. I think most people don't understand until they're in it that there are hundreds of hours of paperwork that go with losing someone, with getting accounts retitled. And many women I know don't even have a credit card that's fully in their name. And they don't realize that, you know, I couldn't have booked that trip if I didn't have a credit card in my name. If I was scrambling to get credit to rent a hotel room, some people are even in this situation where they literally have been with their partner a very long time, and just the way things have evolved, the only thing that they have in their name is like a Sephora card or Nordstrom's card. You know, they don't even have the basics set up. And I think part of the reason I was able to get out in the world, which was exactly what I needed, was to be with you and be with that amazing group of people talking about community and talking about business building. Like that's what my heart needed. And I was able to be there because we had taken care of so many other things up front.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Wow. Okay. I don't know. There were 86 decisions to be made.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Oh my goodness. You have to decide, like on that first day, you have to already know the funeral home you're gonna call. And you have to know, you know, do you want cremation or burial or they have green burials now? Are you gonna want an open casket? Are you gonna want a viewing? Are is their viewing clothes different than cremation clothes? What kind of service? What kind of music? What order are you calling family members in? Are you gonna put obituary in the local paper, in the state paper? Is there are you gonna do an online obituary? I could just go on and on. There's so many decisions that you have to make right away in that first week while your brain is running at maybe 20% capacity.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Right, because you're in shock, you're in grief. Wow. And and it it almost always does, not almost always, but more often than not, women do outlive men and their domestic partnerships. Um three to one.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

If you are a woman partnered with a man, three to one.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Okay, yeah, and it's like these things we definitely don't want to think about and make dispicious on when you know we're we're crying and we're in grief. Yeah. So being prepared helps set you up for a life of freedom that continues after. Yes, partner is past.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

Okay, so you know, and before we're done today, I'm gonna talk you into all the good reasons why someone would want to do this.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yes, tell us all the good reasons why someone would want to do this. Well, you know, why don't we start there? That's a great place to start.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

Yeah, because we don't, this isn't a chore. Okay, we think it's gonna be a chore because it feels big and depressing and overwhelming. But when you really start to dig into the bits and pieces, for example, if you are in a partnered relationship, and we'll talk about if you're not, because this is just as important if you're like a single person, someone still needs to know your wishes. But if you're in a partnered relationship like I was for decades, you start to stop noticing all the things that your partner takes care of. Like, for example, I hadn't made plane reservations in like 15 years because my husband was always better at making flight like vacation plans. And so I stopped knowing to appreciate how long it took him to do that and still until he started showing me some of the things that he was taking care of in our relationship. He was teaching me like some of the things that he did, and then I actually did it, this chore that I hadn't done in 15 years, and I was like, I appreciate that you take care of this all the time. You know, it really helped me see the jobs that he was taking care of, not just even the big ones, like he was handling our finances, but some of the smaller things I had stopped noticing that he did. And same with me, because even though he had a terminal illness, I still could have gotten in a car accident, you know, I still could have died first. And so I went through like these are all the people I handle all the stuff in our house, the furnace guy and the guy that cuts our trees, and you know, all of the house things. And so when I listed out, like, here are all the people, if something happened to me, this is who you would call for all this is our plumber, our electrician. He started to appreciate that running the house was an actual skill. And so having having those conversations helped make visible our invisible roles in the relationship, and therefore you appreciate each other even more. Yes, yeah, yeah. I was like, wow, I didn't realize how long you spent finding, you know, this particular fair or how you thought through like when to spend money on a hotel and when to stay budget. And same with same, it surfaced all those, not all of the invisible labor, but it surfaced a good portion of our invisible labor.

unknown 11:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

And it's the first thing we came to appreciate what we actually brought to the table. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

I I as you were saying that, I was like, in my mind, there's so many things that my life partner handles because he's methodical, he's thorough, and he's just better at it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I remember just the other day, I'm like, you need to live to like a hundred, okay? I have this like sense of attachment.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

I'm like, don't you ever go away.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Yeah, I don't want to. My husband read all the legal contracts. I'm like, I don't want to, I don't want to read legal contracts. Like, yeah, please.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

And my situation is a little bit complicated because now we're gonna be moving abroad. And so, yeah, it's we're gonna have I'm gonna have to learn like, you know, Japanese laws, and just in case if one of us dies while we're abroad, or you know what happens? I I don't know. This is like this is really risky. Okay, but we did the first thing doing this, planning ahead helps us appreciate them while they're here with us, even more. And what's another reason?

SPEAKER_03 12:35

This is a great another reason, yeah, is you normally find money. I've not yet had a client that didn't find money. Okay. What? Like, for example, here's some of the places people have found retirement accounts that were on, say, all your money is with Fidelity, but this one retirement account is with Wells Fargo from this job you had 15 years ago. People have literally found accounts that they had forgotten about and not small accounts, like tens of thousands of dollars. People have found like double charges when we went through all of the credit cards. We made a list of all the credit cards they have so that someone would know, you know, what they would need to cancel on their partner's behalf. One, we found hotel rooms and like member benefits that they were like, oh, I forgot every year I got free Marriott night. I should start taking advantage of that. And then another client actually found that they were being double charged their interest for like a big, like a furniture purchase. And they they had just everything was on auto pay, so they had stopped looking at the statements. And this particular the way it got billed, they were getting double charged on their interest.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

So I think you want to slow us, maybe walk us through the process. Is this during your treasure map process that on we do a full financial audit?

SPEAKER_03 14:18

So we go through all of your assets and all of your IRAs, your bank accounts, your investment accounts, all of your credit cards, all of your maybe you've got student loans or debt. And we look at all of that and we look at how it's titled, and we look at who the beneficiaries are for all of your assets. And so, as a part of that process, most people surface something or they surface an important bill that they want to put on auto pay.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Yeah, and so it's really good financial hygiene.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

Very well put, exactly. Financial hygiene is a great term for that. I should write that down.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

And and you shared in your email newsletter recently the story of somebody who had put their ex-girlfriend as the beneficiary on their retirement. And this ex-girlfriend ended up getting like millions of dollars because the the person who passed away neglected to update their beneficiary in the retirement account. So people probably think, oh, if I just put it in my will and trust, if I put it into my will that I want this money to go, that should be that. But in fact, you have to go into your retirement account, you have to update that beneficiary detail because that's what you know decides who gets the payout when you pass.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Yes, that is a really this is a story people can look up in the Wall Street Journal. A man had it just as I was saying, it was a previous job from like 20 years ago, he had put this beneficiary down, completely forgotten about it. Just as you described, put it in the will, thinking that that would take precedent. And yeah, I think his girlfriend, it was it was well over a million dollars that this ex he hadn't talked to in like 20 years was legally entitled to because he hadn't updated a form. For right, paperwork is a lot sexier when there is millions of dollars attached.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Forms become a lot sexier when there's millions and millions of dollars attached. Yeah, I mean, I I thought negotiating your salary was important and sexy, but I'm like, okay, we gotta wait we gotta talk about the form that's attached to your retirement account. Okay, wow. Such a such an eye-opening story. Is there a third reason why during the treasure map the process is really good?

SPEAKER_03 17:01

Yes, this reason it's gonna surface the shit that you're not talking about.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff you don't talk about when you like live with somebody for years and years, decades. Yeah, we just start letting things just go under the rug and blind spots. Yeah, tell us more.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

So, for example, as we get older, it's more likely that they're that these are perhaps like we might have children from a previous marriage, we might have family members that we intend to take care of, you know, in in their old age. And those conversations can go undiscussed in between partners, right? You may have the intention that you're gonna take care of your mom, whatever she needs, as long as she needs it, and maybe your partner doesn't agree with that, but they just kind of it's not a comfortable conversation, and so that keeps getting pushed off. But those things simmer in relationships, and you certainly don't want to wait until you know your mom actually needs the care, or you know, it comes time to divide up the assets between children from this marriage or previous marriage, and surfacing all of those things now and having supported conversations about what you really want is so much healthier for your relationship than you know, just letting them go, things go unsaid, yeah, until one of you can't say them anymore.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Right, right. And then you let those things simmer for so long, they they start wrankling, you know? Yeah, okay. Is there is there another one? Is there another reason that it's so good? So it's it's good financial hygiene, it's good relationship hygiene. You might find money, right? You might save money, you'll learn to appreciate your partner even more. Is there another one? Another reason?

SPEAKER_03 19:10

I think the final reason is really thinking about this does bring in to your awareness that my time here is limited.

unknown 19:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

And maybe, you know, thinking of your work, maybe this is the time. I'm gonna go in and ask for a raise. Like, gall darn it, I'm gonna start putting off to someday the things that I want to do now. I'm gonna change careers. I'm gonna finally go for that big client. I'm gonna go pitch that big client that I just keep maybe someday. Like the process of thinking about your own mortality reminds you, you know, it times clack sticking.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Like, get exactly that's why we have these risky conversations because it's so worth it. On the other hand, you you you appreciate life while you have it so much more. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

Yeah, and I I really mean that. Like, that is not just a slogan on the side of the coffee mug. Like, I really do feel like I appreciate my life more, knowing that I don't have a guarantee of 20 more years.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

You know, sometimes when I'm like really, really stressed, I have a chronic illness, so I I'm literally stress intolerant. If I'm like, I guess first off, I get sick, and then when I get like that, I I do this Buddhist thing where they meditate on like what it might be like for your body to decompose. And it's like very otherworldly, but you know, it's a meditation, so it's relaxing, and you just ease into that concept, and you're like, oh, we're just we're just so grateful that we had that opportunity to to once have been above ground with the people, you know, and then you just come back to this waking life, like, okay, we can handle one day, you know. We can we can get on a coaching call, we can write that email, we can have a conversation about wills and trusts and beneficiary forms. And then maybe you could also have that conversation about going for the promotion, the raise, or starting your own business, because you know, this time on earth is limited. So thank you so much for bringing this precious gem to our awareness. So I do have to ask the question that I asked everyone else, now that we know the five gems that we treasure map, such a great experience. What was the riskiest conversation that you have had? Yeah. I'm gonna take a sip. Okay, should we should we go get grab a tissue?

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Maybe. The riskiest conversation that I've ever had was in the cardiac ICU at my husband's bedside. He had already been diagnosed a couple of months earlier with stage four cancer. And you would think that that would have been the kick in the pants for us to get going on some of this planning, but it wasn't because it was it was too late then. I didn't want to give him any idea that I wasn't a hundred percent sure that he was going to be fine. Like that is not the time. Do not wait for a diagnosis. Do it now. But we hadn't. And so now he was in the cardiac ICU, and they were about ready to pull his breathing tube after a surgery. So he'd been sedated for a couple of days. You know, we just stood by his bedside, kind of willing his numbers to come up on the monitor while he was completely sedated. And now we were gonna have this little window of time to say everything and for him to write down he couldn't speak, but we had a notebook for him to write down all of the things that he wanted to say to us. And then they're gonna pull the tube. And if he breathes, he breathes, and if he doesn't, that's it. So it is the riskiest conversation I ever had because I went into the conversation knowing it could be my last conversation with him. So just if your listeners just want to take a second and think about what they would want to say in their last conversation with someone that they love. Right? That feels high stakes.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

The highest of the high stakes. Cannot get it even higher than this. Right? I don't care if somebody wants to give you a billion dollars. This is the highest stakes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Exactly. Because you don't get there's no, there's potentially no second chance. So they pull the tube, he's coming out of sedation, and we are doing all of the like, I love you, thank you so much for this beautiful life we've had together. No matter what happens, like I would do it all again. And also, what's the password to your laptop? And am I gonna have to sell the house? Like instead of being able to let those moments just truly be about the love we had for each other, I felt really pressed to get some very basic information because I could I didn't even know the password to his laptop. Like I couldn't two-factor into any account. And I far and away, that was the riskiest conversation because I was trying so hard to surround him in love and to receive the love that he had for us, and at the same time be a little practical because if that laptop locked, how would I get into our accounts? How would I get into, you know, just everything that ran all the bills two-factored into his laptop, into his email? And so, yeah, that was the riskiest conversation. No conversation with the insurance agency, with the doctors, any boss I've ever had, paled in relationship to that just because you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

I mean, what a way to create perspective, right? What a way to create perspective. I I I remember in one coaching conversation, I somebody was complaining about her job and she had all this ambition. And I'm like, okay, what if you had six months to live? What would you do? She was like, Oh, oh, if I had six months to live, I just go and do the thing. And she became an author, a speaker, and and but thank you, thank you so much for sharing the story. I I do have to ask, and then what happened?

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Then he lived, which is amazing. Yeah, and like the nerd I am, he spent most of the next month in the hospital, and I dragged this. I had this big like rolling bag that I dragged in all of our financial folders, and we we hired a financial planner for me, because that was we hired an estate attorney and we went through all of our household files and created this sort of massive document so that if something like at that point, I'm like, oh, I can't mess around anymore. Like I would be out of luck if something happened, as would he if something happened to me on the way to the hospital. Again, it's not one-sided, it's not even though it can come up for some partners feel like an unevenness in their relationship. Yeah, doing this together exposes that that's not true. Right. Even if one person is handling all the finances, the other person is taking care of a whole bunch of stuff too. And that's why having the conversation and bringing all of that to the table can even change how the power dynamics feel.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

And the treasure map, I did a version of it, and I shared my passwords, my like computer and iPhone passwords with my life partner. You know, we have this like running joke between us that even though he's older, like I'm the older one because I've had chronic illness all my life. And it gave me like the sense of relief as soon as like, okay, even if like it was the smallest, tiniest beginning step to having that full conversation. At least I know like he has the password, he can get into my devices. Yeah, something really dire happen and I can't, I'm incapacitated. He can access my device. That gives me a sense of peace.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Yeah, 100%. Because if he can get into your device, he can reset your whatever, your Netflix password just to pull like a dumb example. You don't necessarily have to make these super complete password lists. If they can just two-factor into, and maybe it's more than one email, maybe you have a couple of emails. If they can two-factor into the accounts, they can reset the other passwords. So you're right, just getting those little pieces done makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Yes. So thank you. I I I I kind of got the sense that as you were telling the story, that's all the treasure map was sort of born from this experience. And it's it's like the superhero's journey, like every every traumatic experience sort of gives birth to something that is of immense value to the world, you know? Like unfortunately, yes. Yeah, it's very traumatic, very sad, but it gave birth to the treasure map. So I I'm I'm I'm curious. What makes thinking and talking about our own death so valuable? We've been talking about the possible or the the future. What am I trying to say? I'm sorry, I'm like blanking, but we we were talking about this risky conversation that you have with your late husband. But what about our our own possible deaths?

SPEAKER_03 29:51

Well, I think you already explained it with your client. You know, when you gave her a short timeline, she's like, oh no, I would like it was so clear to her exactly what she would do. And similarly, you know, as I think about what my life is now that I'm a widow, I'm spending a lot of time thinking, like, what are my real priorities?

unknown 30:17

Right.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

Am I spending time, you know, relandscaping the front yard, or am I spending time traveling, or am I spending time trying to find speaking opportunities so I can get this message out? Am I spending time with my friends? Am I spending time developing those meaningful relationships? I think when you're aware that your time is limited, for some people, maybe that feels terrible because it feels like pressure. But just like with your meditation, where you meditated on what it would be like to even decompose. Having that comfort level with the idea that time is limited makes you spend your days more true to yourself, more true to yourself, more authenticity, more integrity.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Yes, yeah, and isn't that yeah, that makes life it's not a coffee mug, it's a great way to live. It's not a coffee mug, authenticity, integrity, not just empty words, but something that really makes life worth living, like really alive, genuinely alive.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

Yes, yes, and when you do this and when you contemplate your own death, again, you're leaving security, even if you're single, even if there is no partner, you're still leaving there is someone that will come after you. Maybe it's you know, nephew or sister or someone like that. And when you know that you've set things up to be easy for them, also then I don't feel like my own death is going to be a burden for my children. Things are set up, they're not gonna. There's a person on Instagram, Millennial Inheritance, that just shows like these immense, like beanie baby collections and talks about what millennials are having to go through as they lose their parents. And really just about the burden of stuff, even that we're living leaving for the people that come behind us. And there's a freedom and letting all of that go now.

unknown 32:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

Yeah, kind of like when you clean your closet, death is a version of like the spring clean out of your closet. Part of what you're doing when you clean your closet is you're letting go of all those identities that are no longer you. And this is another form of that. Thinking, if I only have this much time, how do I want to spend it?

unknown 32:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

You're you're reminding my father passed 2020, not from COVID, but he had heart failure. And he by the end of his life, he had become a hoarder. And so when he passed, it's okay. It's it's fine. When he passed, yeah, he left behind a big mess. And you know, part of letting, you know, letting him pass on to the next life was emptying all the crap that was in his space and throwing it out. And yeah, it was it was it was like bittersweet, but it's it's what you have to do, right? When your parents pass. And I remember I also had to, you know, file his death certificate and do all the the administrative stuff, and it felt almost like ceremonial, kind of like I was really honored that I got to do it, and it was paperwork, we had to go to the banks, it was all the stuff. But yeah, I was I was kind of glad that I got to do it for him. Yeah, that's amazing, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

Yeah, not everyone feels that way, and that is amazing that you were turned able to turn it into an act of love.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Well, I mean, his affairs were rather simple, and I was like, I was kind of grateful that it was it wasn't overly complicated or complex, but yeah, I I was just glad that I I got to handle his affairs at the end because I could tell like it would have been way too much for my other sisters. But yeah, it's it's still a little kind of bittersweet to recall that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

And you know, you bring uh up a good point. A lot of people that do treasure map don't just do it for themselves, they do it for their parents, and they do it for their sister, or they do it for people that are sort of in their at least the basics. They and I want that. I want each person to become like a little preparedness node in their world because it it is a gift to make things simpler for the people. One of the one of my clients uh refers to it like she's writing a love letter if she's working on these files.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Tell us more about the treasure map because the version that I had it was very straightforward. We signed up and we got emails from you with very clear and simple instructions that were accompanied by nervous system regulation tools that were very useful. Is there a different version of that or is it next iteration of that?

SPEAKER_03 35:41

There's a full version, what you got, and what I would love everyone to at least do that piece. So thinking if someone is on listening today and they I'm answering a different question. I'll answer your question, then we'll say, what should people do? Uh the full version of Treasure Map, it's actually it's it goes through each of the areas of your life. Um, you got a little taste of it, but it goes through everything that you need to know in the first 48 hours. Everything that you need to do.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Wait, wait, wait, can you clarify the first 40 48 hours after a beloved?

SPEAKER_03 36:23

But do you lose a loved one? And so this is something this piece alone takes a couple of weeks to go through because in there are all of sort of your end-of-life wishes and who you're contacting. You're making notes. Do you have an employer? Like, for example, you own your own business. What would someone need to send out to clients? Because obviously you wouldn't be making calls the next day. And so that the first piece is we really go through everything someone would need to know the 48 hours after losing you.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

But I'm sorry, I some of the the the weight of that just landed on me.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

I just sorry, yeah, so that that is a possibility. Something can of course it is. Yeah, I always have coaching sessions booked on my calendar, so somebody oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

I really need to do this. Yeah, you just need to put a process in place. Maybe you have a VA that could send out, you know, a pre-written notice. Okay, I interrupted you. Please continue. So no, but those are the kind of things that people discover when we go through those first 48 hours. And then we go through all of the financial things that we already talked about. And then we go through the five legal documents that you need to have in place. I don't do those, someone else is going to do those. I'm not a lawyer, but we make sure those are in place and up to date. And along that, sort of your record keeping. Like if someone needed to do your taxes, how would they get access to last year's taxes? Like, what is your tax process? Again, these are things that usually in a partnership, one spouse is handling, and we're just externalizing like all taxes are in the downstairs file cabinet. Jeff Bridges is the guy. Here's his phone number. So we're stepping through each of the areas of your life. We're talking about what that final service is going to look like. So it's a there's it takes about four months. There's a group version that's gonna start in September because I think it's fun to do things in community. I think it's fun. I think we get better ideas when we're doing things in community. Or for people who are more private or have more time intensive, you can do it one-on-one with me. But it's about 10 areas we go through and build so that someone would have everything they need if something happened to you.

unknown 39:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Okay, so I got the taster. Pardon? I got the taster version that came via email and came with like step-by-step instructions. And I thought that was really good. But in fact, I was thinking, yeah, I think like a cohort or group community would be really good because there's like emotions that come up, resistance that comes up. It's like, oh, I could just watch Netflix and not think about dying, or somebody I love dying, you know.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

But then when you're in a community, what I found, I ran a version of this last June. What you find is like, oh, I hadn't thought about that. Someone brings up a question. There's a module that goes out each week that you work on for that week. And then we have two sets of office hours where like everything is taught ahead of time in the module you get. And then the office hour, you just show up and do it during that hour, and then I'm available to answer questions. And so where do people go to learn more about the treasure map? Alierwin.com forward slash treasure map. And is that one word treasure map? That's a really good question.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

I will put the link in the show. Please do A-L-L-I-E-I-R-W-I-N.com forward slash treasure map. Yes. Okay. Yeah, amazing. Amazing. So I'm curious, you know, you have an engineering background and you and I both got hypnotists uh certified. And how do those things, how does being an engineer, how does being a hypnotist come into play? I I'd imagine some people like, can you just hypnotize me so I never so I won't be sad? Yeah, so I I won't be sad, so I can't feel this grief.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

Okay, that is such a great question. And there's two answers. One is people think that logical brain and emotional brain are somehow two separate brains. They're not two separate brains, they are all connected in this big, beautiful brain we have. And the nervous, like the stronger you're feeling in one area, the stronger you need systems in the other area. We often use logic to avoid feelings, right? We're like super mad about something in the HOA. This was me, super mad about my HOA because being mad at the HOA felt a lot better than being sad about losing Gavin. So the more you have one, the more you have the other. And so having an engineering background meant I was able to systematize what we did and break it down into small, really doable steps, like you experienced in the taster version you did. The first step is really identifying who is your next of kin and letting them know. And while that's a straightforward answer to you, it's not to every person. Not every person has a long-term partner that's automatically their next of kin. And even in some second marriages, a lot of those uh next of kin powers people are choosing to give to an adult child and not their current romantic partner. And so, really, even small steps like identifying your next of kin and then telling them that they're your next of kin is an important step for people.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Yes, yes, yes. And I'd imagine this applies not just to married couples, but just as you said, single people, but also domestic partners, yes, and all sorts of family structures.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

Because, you know, that's very well put. Also there are all sorts of family structures. Yeah. You know, even as women get older, you know, there's popping up these communities around the nation where like older women are living together, golden girls, living together, golden girls style. And you know, what if what if they need to be your next of kin because they are physically right there?

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

You know, they're there and could make medical decisions as opposed to your kid that lives a thousand miles away.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

You know, these are all conversations and having those conversations, I'm very excited about offering it as a group because having those conversations in a community opens up your imagination about what's right for you.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

And how does the hypnosis come into play? Because we heard about the systematically, yes, okay. The strategy.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

You got a little taste of the emotional regulation tools in that small first things first. I used hypnosis tools. On the very first day that I lost my husband of 30 years. That very first day, I used tools like havenine, which is a hypnotic tool that uses touch. I used, I got on the phone and I used havenine with a friend. And that is a form of self-hypnosis. And having hypnotic tools at your disposal, I think of them like emotional first aid tools, helps you stay present, you know, while they were coming to pick up his body. I was able to stay present and not just totally dissociate. I made the phone calls that I needed to make, and then I went and laid with him until they came. And having that emotional resilience on that day to be able to choose what I wanted to do is something that I had built ahead of time with hypnotic tools. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 45:14

It makes so much, well, it makes sense to me because I know the tools. And what you're saying is that it created a foundation of strength.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

For you to be able to be present and alive, awake, not shut down, not medicated, not you know, high or drunk, or you know, you're present in that moment. And I just have to say, Ali, you're like one of the strongest women, like strongest people I know. And I know that from following you on Facebook, like you have been sharing this journey from even before Gavin passed, right? And you you have been so alive. And I mean that's that's like it's such an understatement for what you what you uh embody, but it's this just crystal clear strength.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

Like being thank you. Hypnosis tools are at the at the base of that.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Yeah, and and said another way, the hypnosis tools are tools to help us manage our own nervous system. Yes, not shutting down.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

I am nodding vehemently.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Yes, that's and these are some tools that I also teach my clients when when they like freaking out about the work stress, but you could also use it for major life events.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

And yeah, and this is where I get so excited. What I want people to do is to literally use them every day. Every day you are reading a news story, someone is making some sort of dumb comment on social media, your neighbor's dog is pooping in your front lawn, every day, something comes up. Yes, and then something does come up to take it down, yeah. Then you just build capacity every day. It's like you know, doing sit-ups or push-ups or whatever you do to keep your body strong. You can build your resilience every day. Then when you're freaking out before you go to ask for a raise, yeah, you're reaching for that tool naturally.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Yeah, do some havening. Do some peripheral vision. Maybe you can tell us, maybe you can tell us a little bit more specifically how you did do uh self-havening with your friend on the phone. Like, what does that look like? Perfect.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

So inside your brain, you have a representation, it's called the homunculus, which is a funny word, but you have a representation and the areas, there are certain parts of your body that get more brain real estate than others. So if you touch your elbow, there's like almost no brain real estate for your elbow. But your hands, your brain is really aware of everything that's happening to your hands and your arms and your face. So if you are, if you just cross your arms, put your hands on the opposite shoulders, and just gently stroke all the way down to your palms a couple of times, especially while you're talking to a friend or you're distracting yourself with some other positive association, like thinking about your five favorite movies or your five greatest vacations, your nervous system is encoding that touch and that positive association into what's ever happening right now. So if your body's in fight or flight because you've suffered a big loss, and then you haven't, which is again, it's just that touch, shoulders down to your palms, or even just your palms against each other, your body is getting the message, I'm okay. I'm okay. And if you think about it, that's what we do to babies, like we stroke their backs, or in a lot of interviews, celebrity interviews, you'll notice they're like rubbing their leg, or um, they'll be rubbing their hands together or their arms. They're unconsciously doing that because our bodies know that that's a way that we can help ourselves stay calm. You're literally encoding comforting touch into the situation that's stressing you out.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

And so in your treasure map, you weave all these really great evidence-based tools along with the pragmatism, this spheri pragmatism of like, okay, we all die. Let's get prepared so we can continue to live and be free, even when people we love pass away, or when we pass away. It's so good.

SPEAKER_03 50:00

Yeah. So imagine now you're having that conversation with your partner that you've been avoiding because I don't know, you don't want his mom to live with you, or you don't want his niece to get your money if you die, like whatever that sticking point is for you. You can comfort yourself. I've got tools that you can use even during that conversation so that things don't escalate.

unknown 50:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:28

This is yeah, or maybe talking to a financial planner, the idea of talking to a financial planner brings up decades of money shame.

unknown 50:35

Right.

SPEAKER_03 50:36

We're gonna self-soothe while we're doing it so that you don't check out and go watch Netflix.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

Let's bring up that money shame and let's get rid of it. And then you don't have to carry it around with you.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Amazing, amazing. Is there anything else that we haven't yet asked that you want to make sure the listeners take away?

SPEAKER_03 50:59

Don't wait, don't wait. I like we waited, and there are some things that are happening even with the estate, with as much planning as we did that are happening because we waited too long to do it. By the time we were making some of the decisions we were making, the partner that would have been really helpful to think through that was too sick. So please like learn from my mistakes. Don't wait. Do it, do it now. Have your adult children. Some of these documents should be in place for your adult children. You know, if they get in an accident, you don't automatically get power of attorney. And so please don't wait.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

So everyone, go check out Alierwin.com slash treasure map. And thank you so much for spending this hour with us. Thank you for sharing such such the riskiest conversation that we've ever addressed ever on this podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you for being you. Thank you, Jamie.

unknown 52:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Thank you for joining me today on risky conversations. Remember, everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. And when done well, your self-advocacy becomes an act of service. If you're ready to de-risk your own career evolution, I invite you to book a free hour-long consultation at jamelecoach.com slash apply. J-A-M-I-E-L-E-E-C-O-A-C-H dot com slash apply. We'll map out your custom blueprint to confidence and get you on the path to being better paid on your own terms. Let's make your next conversation the one that changes everything. Toxin.