SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hello, I'm Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics. And I help them get promoted, get better paid without throwing anyone under the bus. How? By blending proven communication strategies with brain shifting neuroscience techniques. In this podcast, we explore the stories and strategies of gutsy women and allies who've braved speaking up and navigated their careers forward. We're here to de-risk the conversations that feel the most daunting. Let's dive in. Welcome to Risky Conversations. My name is Jamie Lee, and why risky conversations? Because everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. And today I am, you know, doing away with only talking to women. And I have our wonderful ally, friend, Steve Alexander Jr., who is a licensed mental health counselor, former risk management professional, and founder of New York Wellness Counseling Services, a virtual group therapy practice serving clients across New York and New Jersey. And he holds two master's degrees from Teachers College, Columbia University. And you specialize in working with first generation Americans. That's me. That's me. I'm a first generation American. And people navigating multiple cultural, personal, and professional identities. That's me too. Yeah. And Steve's work focuses on helping people move beyond limiting labels. Yes, please. Embrace the complexity of who they are and build lives that feel authentic. Welcome to Risky Conversation, Steve.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Thank you for having me. I'm like so excited about this. Kids. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Yes. And I met Steve at New York Toastmasters. So I think it was from 2013 to 2017. I was very actively engaged in New York Toastmasters. And by the way, there are Toastmasters all over the world. And New York Toastmasters, we pride ourselves as being like the Ivy League, like the Yale or the Harvard of Toastmasters. We're always oversubscribed. We have amazing authors and you know, consultants, and coaches, and professional speakers, and executives, and therapists, and you know, all sorts of amazing uh professionals who come to New York Toastmasters and give speeches. And when I was actively involved, you were the president of the club. And I just remember always being astounded by how well you, you know, practice, how well you put together these speeches. And like, I remember thinking, this person, this person, this guy's a perfectionist.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Because your speeches were always so, so like like on the nose and so well put together. And well, we heard it's alive. He's good. Yeah. So I'm so glad to have you on the podcast. And as you know, I'm an executive coach and I work primarily with professional women, like mid-manager, mid-career managers or entrepreneurs, also you know, service providers, and I help them, you know, make more money, build their confidence, get promoted. And every once in a while, people come to me and I'm like, you should talk to a therapist. You know, like they tell me they're depressed. They sometimes they tell me they're they're in a like an abusive relationship, or they tell me things I'm like, oh, this is beyond me. Yeah. So could we start there? Like, when do you think people should seek a licensed mental health counselor's help? And I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Yeah, I love that we're starting there. I have so many reactions as I'm thinking about it, but to be brief, so it's hard. So what happens is you're an executive coach, but you're also a helping professional. So just the fact that people are willing to say I'm depressed or going through domestic violence or abuse shows that there's something healing about what you're providing. So I would say that it's it's it's sometimes tough to know the line, but if I had to give an abridged version, I would say once people start talking about things like childhood trauma, if they mention suicide, or if it's things that like, think about it, you're there for a very specific reason. I want to help this woman make more money. And you hear all these things is getting in the way beyond uh you know what you normally provide. I would say that's probably when you'd have them go talk to a professional. But it's not like a one size fits all. Some people will come because they're dealing with the death like I've dealt with. Some people just had a child and or their newtime father, and then some people are just sad about communication they have with their spouse. So like ranges and all are important.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah, and you're right. I I there I acknowledge that there definitely is an overlap because I work one-on-one with people, and a lot of the tools and techniques I I use, they're therapeutic, but it's not mental, it's not professional mental, you know, health services. So, and sometimes we talk about the past and then we reimagine the past, and then it helps them reimagine the future in a productive way that helps them, you know, achieve the goal that they have. But I I think what you just said is spot on. Like if it's if it's like suicidal ideation or it's grief, or it's like this, you know, depression that you know, really having trouble with. And and it's like you really need to be heard and seen for that that that you know that human experience, as opposed to a coach who's gonna gently nudge you to take action towards a future that you want. So it's like you know, some someone that's gonna help you be seen and acknowledge the past and no rush to think about where do you want to go from here? What do you want to do? Right. Those are those are the kind of questions that I ask.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

That's right. That's right. You got it.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Okay, great. And I'm curious, how did you become a licensed mental health counselor? Like what led you to becoming a therapist?

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Oh, great question. And I just want to say how happy I am. Like, number one, we're friends, so it feels very comfortable talking to you, but yeah, I really get to tell my story. I just sit and listen most of the time. So I'm I'm so ecstatic. So if you see me smile, that's what's happening. I'm not like weird or anything. So, how did I become a therapist? I was, and it's interesting what you said about Toastmasters, about how I came across Paula. That was probably one of the worst periods of my life. I was just so I was so rigid and buttoned up, and it was so one day if you want me back, I'll come talk about that. But how did I become a therapist? So I'm working in risk management. I'm a first-generation American, and I define that just by being like, I'm the first person born in America, right? Parents came here when they were very young, but they were like, you got to make a lot of money. I always wanted to be like a veterinarian, or maybe I always said like psychologists. My parents thought, number one, you're allergic to all these animals, you're not becoming a veterinarian. And psychologists, no one's gonna pay you to talk to them. So I just abandoned what I thought and I went to school. I was always relatively smart. So I was undecided. I followed my twin sister into college and she wanted to go to St. John's, so I just followed her. I didn't care about college. I went there, someone told me, hey, do risk management. I was undecided. I said, let me go for it. I hated all the classes. There was one professor who was really cool and I liked him. And I said, you know what? I could probably do this thing. I did one internship and I couldn't stand it. And I'm like, oh my goodness, I cannot do this the rest of my life. But I'm already in it, I'm doing risk management. So I know I'm talking too fast, let me know. I joined after the internship, I joined the field of risk management and I hated. When you talk about clinical depression, it goes beyond normal sadness. I had all of those features. I'm crying at work, I'm thinking very fatalistically to say, like, let's just say it. I thought about killing myself quite a few times. I was very, very sad, depressed, overwhelmed. And then what happened was one day I saw this program for mental health counseling, and it was at Columbia, and someone said, This is a terminal degree. You could start your private practice. I thought I wasn't smart enough for Columbia. So what I told myself was, I'm going to apply to Columbia, they're gonna reject me, and then I could get this itch about being a helping professional out of my head, right? While I'm at work, people are coming to me before they quit. Uh, you know, they're telling me about their family issues. So I'm thinking maybe I could do this. But then I said, you know what? You're being scattered, apply to Columbia, they'll reject you, and now you got to go full force into risk management. They accept me, I do a couple classes, I'm loving it. I got some bad feedback, I could probably tell you about that. But that's how it came about in risk management, was very overwhelmed, sad, and then I ended up just getting this opportunity to just ran for it.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

I think you you told us about applying. Yeah, like you, I remember you submitted the application, right? So this this was like within the last 10 years that this happened.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, yeah, 2015. And interestingly, there was a person that I remember him from Toastmasters. I don't know if you'd want me to say his name, but I remember I'm on my way to the World Financial Center, wherever I was, one World Trade Center, and this person sees me, a fellow Toastmaster, right? He says, Steve, you look tired, and I almost broke down crying because I couldn't tell him, like, you know, I'm depressed, I just don't want to be here. He just you look tired, and I just wanted to crumble, you know, and I I always remember that. But yes, so I applied, they accepted me. It was very rocky because I was a non-traditional student. I did not study psychology in undergrad. So all my peers, if I'm talking to us, let me know. All my peers went to school for psychology and all this stuff. I had a business background and yeah, all this kind of stuff. So it was very hard, but they accepted me. I took it and then never looked back.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Wow. Okay. So, you know, your story really resonates with me because I also worked in finance briefly early in my career, and the pain and the suffering in that during that two-year experience when I worked at a hedge fund during the financial crisis sort of gave birth to the work that I do because I found out that I was underpaid. I was the only woman at an all-male trading desk. And I really, you know, there was just so much sexual harassment that was just casually happening all the time. And I felt depressed. And my body, I have a chronic illness. So, like my body just kept getting sicker. I kept getting infections again and again. And I remember just thinking, this can't go on, right? I can't, my my mind and my body are telling me this can't go on. And I I quit and then I did an internship and then I pivoted to a completely different career, and then eventually I became a coach. But sometimes, you know, superheroes are made. Yep, superheroes are made by their trial and tribulations, the trauma, right? And you having uh you being a first-generation American, uh, you being a person of multiple cultural backgrounds, you being a male ally, and you having experienced workplace depression because it was such a bad fit. I'm sure there's such a strength and asset when it comes to supporting clients in your therapy practice because a lot of people feel depressed by their work.

unknown 11:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

You know, sometimes they come to me and I'm like, go talk to somebody like Stevie, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

It's interesting because sometimes I say, Go to talk to somebody like Jamie, because I'll be honest, sometimes I sit with it and I just feel so sad. Like when you were telling your story, I almost felt myself tearing up because you've mentioned the chronic illness. Yeah. And we I know we're privileged to like not be a part of that anymore, but there's somebody listening that's probably two years into a hedge fund, they want to leave and it's just hard, and maybe they don't find you know, who knows how we've heard about people dying at the desk, right? So, yeah, I'm resonating with everything you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Yeah, and also, you know, your my parents, well, my mom, yeah, they also told us they want you to, you know, be successful and make a lot of money. And so I sort of inverted that. I'm like, I'm just gonna go help other people make a lot of money because to me that's my satisfaction and fulfillment. But yeah, uh so much to uncover here. But here's the thing I'm sure you have had lots of conversations that have, you know, that have become inflection points in your career. And I'm curious, what was one of the riskiest conversations that you have had, whether it was about career direction or otherwise? And you're like, oh, you know, it felt so risky, but I'm so glad I had that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

There were so many. Oh my gosh. I'm gonna say two, but I'm gonna emphasize one for the sake of time. So one hard one was telling my mom that I was gonna become a therapist, because as much as as strong as I think I don't subscribe to hypermasculinity, I never really felt like manly like that, but so I'm sensitive. So my mom, I had to tell her like you know, I'm leaving with a secure job to try and do this thing. I we didn't get into it, but I was taking a $30,000 pay cut. So it was just like I was literally, it was a nightmare in many ways until it was not. But so I had to talk to my mom about that. That was very hard. But another one was leaving corporate America, so I went to my, I was having a terrible time. Then, you know what happens like this. Probably like six months or a year after before I left, I got the most sweetest, nicest manager. I manage people in my practice now, I model it after him. Such a nice person, wonderful. One day I went to like to him with tears in my eyes in the virgin, and he was so sweet. And I said, you know, I got into Colombia and I'm thinking about I don't know what to do. I'm thinking about leaving this place because it's a little harsh and I don't know what to do. And he just said, Steve, if you got into Colombia, go to Colombia. Like that, that's awesome. And it was just, I, you know, I don't know what I was expecting, but it was such a hard thing for me to muster up the courage. I'm not naturally assertive, I'm very shy by nature. I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm afraid of people, but I kind of like for instance, if you weren't good at asking questions, I might just sit here quietly and just not say anything. I don't know what's wrong with me. So to go and talk to him was like the hardest thing in the world. And I was embraced with so much love and affection and compassion. It was just great.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

And what do you think it was what about having that conversation? Do you think made it feel risky?

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Oh, so made multiple parts of it. Once again, maybe one day I'll come back. So think about multiple multiple cultural identities, right? So I'm a black male, right? In a space that I mean, you could probably, I'm not gonna say there were none, but it I could remember about five out of everyone there.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

So out of like hundreds.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah. So I'll be real with you. I kind of felt differential to white men at one point in my life, you know. Like I did, so now I'm going to this male who's awesome, but so I'm kind of and you know me, I'm not that tall. So I'm going to this tall white male, you know, and they're good looking and all this kind of stuff, and they have the nice striking blue eyes. I never saw myself as particularly attractive to them. Now I'm thinking of now, I'm thinking about it as a therapist and going through my experience. But I have to now go to this person and sort of, yes, I'm leaving, but I don't know, and I gotta sort of ask permission. And my life is kind of like in the palm of your hand. It really wasn't, but that's what's all going through. How do I do this? How are they gonna take it? And if they say no, Steve, you can't, I know I can, but because I'm so deferential, I might say, You're right, no, I can't. So I'm thinking about all the things that could go wrong and even thinking about it now, it's like, oh, it was tough.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Right, right. And I mean, just as a coach, my coach brain kind of turns on, and then I start unpacking how how much we end up conflating our sense of identity and self-worth, you know, in the context of this workplace hierarchy. And we we we forget that all of this is temporary, you know. There's something that I tell my clients often, especially when they're unhappy at work. I'm like, this job is temporary, this isn't you, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

You're not your boss of your life, you know, this is just for now.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Exactly, temporary.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Yeah, yeah. And thank you for bringing the the multi-layer, you know, you know, you you being different. And I I remember that feeling. And I I coach a lot of people, a lot of women, particularly women from Asian heritage, who also feel like this, like, you know, I'm not white, I'm not a guy. It just seems like things are so much easier for those people who just fit in with the predominant group. And I it just feel like for me, the the the learning curve is steeper, the the promotion curve is steeper, the credibility curve is steeper, and it just feels so much harder for me, you know, because I'm different.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Yeah, I'll tell you a story. So I have a good friend who was also working in risk management at the time. And I said, Listen, we went out one day, I don't drink like that, but maybe I had a lemonade, he had a beer, I don't know. But when I'm sticking with this person, and I just I say I gotta be honest with you, like I don't feel comfortable always as a black male asserting myself in these spaces. He said, Steve, you know, I hate that you're saying that. And I said, Why do you hate that I'm saying he said, Because I walked into places and I literally feel like I own it, and you gotta start feeling like that as well. This is what he's telling me, you know, and he didn't quite probably understand like all the dynamics, but damn, that what a different experience. You know, I didn't have that. I've never, never I feel not wanted in most places that I go to, if I'll be honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

So yeah, and a lot of people, a lot of my clients, including myself, I can relate to that feeling of like, is it okay? Am I allowed to leave this? No one's gonna get mad.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, oh my god, have I spent too long? Who's that? Yeah, oh yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yeah, yeah. Well, I I appreciate you you know, relating. And another thing that I wanted to ask you about is I know that you know, now you're a father.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

And I've seen that you you you do work with other therapists on the topic of postpartum for fathers.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

And you know, I've I serve women, so you know, I always hear it from the mother's perspective. I always hear, you know, like the anxiety around going on parental leave, the anxiety around, you know, coming back to work and all of that. And I I don't think I've ever really fully given myself time to think through what it's like for the dad, especially in in this current climate, in these days, yeah, in these days, and especially from you know, somebody who who does feel marginalized, right? I mean, I want to hear all about it.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Like, yeah, like I said, I wish I could talk to you forever, because this is so easy to talk to you, but yeah, so I will say this postpartum, and I might get killed for this, but my belief is that postpartum is as unique as the thumbprint. So the way you experienced postpartum, and so you know, is different than I would, but there are some themes. So for me, what I experienced, I don't know that I immediately felt sadness like that, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:36

And I could tell you about the whole hospital thing, that was the whole thing, but it for me it was anger, and we know men tend to wait wait wait wait wait slow down, slow down for me because I've never had a child, so I don't know, I don't really have context for what you're talking about, and also what so you are you are you can connecting postpartum depression?

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Yeah, yeah, well, post we'll call it so they call it P MADs now, so post-maternal anxiety, depression, something, but it's the same for fathers. The idea is that it's not just depression, there's a a whole array of feelings that are triggered or maybe even exacerbated or made worse by this significant life event called parenthood, or we come with a father, you know. So for me, it was a lot. I it was like men are told you got to be strong, they have a boring, we all know that, but then you have to be a provider. And though in my marriage, we take an egalitarian, like an equal approach, you know, I do dishes, she does, whatever. I still felt that need, like I have to be a provider, but I work in private practice now, so I can't just take time off. Whenever I'm not working, I'm not making money. I haven't figured out the game where I'm like have retainers, I just don't I haven't gotten there. So there was that. So a feeling of oh, how am I gonna provide? And I don't know if I make enough, and you know, then there was a piece of it like, what do I teach? I'm gonna be get so deep here. What what am I going to what do I have to offer a woman? I've always considered myself notoriously bad with women, notoriously, not as bad as it like. I'm always always the safe guy, people's night, but I was never like I never saw myself as attractive. People love talking to me, but I was not the guy that knew women. If anything, I was kind of clumsy, awkward, rigid. You saw me at times, but I'm kind of like, you know, rigid. So I'm like, what if what do I have to offer a little girl at that? So I saw your baby girl, yeah. So I'm like, what? So now I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be useless. There's nothing I could teach her, and she's probably not gonna like me because I'm thinking now it's all irrational, but if I didn't connect with a grown up, how am I gonna connect with another little girl? Right. So I'm thinking about all that stuff, but then a loss of autonomy. I am reasonably ambitious, and I had all these ideas of things I want to do and to do lists, and I can show you, and um, all these goals. And I'm like, once you have a child, it kind of there's a halt put on it if you're a good parent, in a way, because you you kind of have to put them first. So now I'm thinking, like, oh, how am I? I wanted to do this, and think about it. I hope I'm not saying too much. I'm come from a very depressed sort of place. Most people don't know that and they wouldn't realize it, even before school. So I've had this recurring theme of always being very sad and you know, all that kind of stuff. So I finally figured out what I thought was the key to life. I never had hobbies. Now I have a hobby. I'm figuring out life. I feel happy. I bought a house. And now the baby comes in. I'm like, I feel like everything is going to be taken away from me. And so I was just over-exaggerating something, but that was postpartum for me. Yeah, when the guy hair and then the diaper changes, and then when you're in the hospital, this is what I was going to get to. When you're rightfully so, the mother gets all the attention. So they put the baby on the mother for the first hour or something. And it's like I went completely, I was a goat, no one cared about me. I'm in the corner. I'm like, this is the word. Like you know, I just felt lonely in the corner. And I get it. The wife went through everything and all that kind of stuff. But I was like, I and then the baby wasn't too attractive at first. So like this baby's ugly. I'm just being honest.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

I you're being so honest.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

As I am with clients, I just I don't like lying because then I gotta remember it. So I'm like, oh my gosh, this baby looks like an alien or something foreign, and is it gonna? And then she was light-skinned. So I'm like, no, like what you know, I'm not a light-skinned person, so I'm just thinking all this weird stuff, and gradually it got better. I love my baby, she's adorable in many ways. I can show you a picture one day, but yeah, so it was all of that.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

I'm sorry if I rambled, but yeah, no, no, you're just being totally raw, honest, and vulnerable. I appreciate you being this vulnerable with me, and you're you're just being, yeah, again, like a lot of people have those thoughts and they just hide it, mask it, repress it, suppress it, right? Yeah, and and you know, I have to say, every once in a while you say some like self-deprecating things. Yeah, I I I don't know that this is this is my personal bias, but like you know, when men are actually vulnerable with how they really feel, it like it draws people in. You're like, oh you're human just like the rest of us. Oh, yeah, soft and squishy on the inside, just like the rest of us, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

I'm the most softest, squishiest person that you'd ever meet. Like, I think people don't like me easily. And I worked through a lot of that, don't get me wrong, but I'm very sensitive. My father told me he when I was younger, he said, you know, Steve, you're a good kid, but the one problem you have is that you're just it was either too nice or you care about people too much, and that sent me on a rampage. Once again, if you ever want me to come back and talk about like gangs and stuff like that, I turned into a different person. I made myself a monster because I was like, I don't never want to be this girly per back then. I don't I want to be tough, I want to be, you know, very, very it just kind of made me spiral, but yeah, naturally, very soft and squishy on the inside.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Yeah, yeah. Well, well, that's really fascinating because I mean, I I I've went through a very brief stint in my life where I'm like, oh, I'm just gonna be angry at all the injustices and the inequities. And I went to Smith College, so you know, I was exposed to you know, feminism and activism. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna be and then and then I'm like, oh, that's this is exhausting, it's kind of tiring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, and for me, I'm a highly sensitive person. And as as a woman, as an Asian woman, like it's almost like expected, but I I have to imagine as a black male, like it's it goes against people's expectations.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

And those expectations, like we should question those expectations, but I just want to acknowledge, you know, it's it just makes it a little bit more difficult when uh how you how you are is not what most people think how you will be.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So tell us more, tell us more about where your practice is going now. I I love that you know, you're working with people, you know, first generation Americans, multiple cultural, personal, professional identities, like you know, yes, people of marginalized ideas. Yeah, tell us more.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

So it's interesting. So every marketing person, which marketing has been like a challenge for me. I don't know why, but they say you got to find a niche. So come up with your ideal client, and yeah, you know, who would you want to? So I thought about myself and I'm like, okay, who would I like working with? So it became very awkward. So I'm a black male, black male, I'm a Catholic. That's another thing that people don't understand, which informs kind of how, you know. So I had all these identities, and all of them have made me feel at one time or another that I just don't fit in. You know, I felt like I don't fit in with black people sometimes because you know, my church wasn't all black and all that stuff. So I was like, who do I want to help? So I thought first generation because it was just easy. I'm first generation, but then I'm like, I want to help people who don't fit neatly in a box, you know, you can't just pin one thing on them. And then that's how it kind of unraveled or whatever the case may be. That was for me. Then I started hiring some clinicians, and then so I got people, so I I personally specialize in trauma, so EMDR, things like that, flash therapy, these are trauma techniques. But we have people that work with deaf and hard of hearing, we have people who just work with women issues, mother issues. So, you know, it's a big spread. And I it probably is confusing because you're like, okay, well, then who's your target audience? I don't quite know what's being defined every day, but I like to think of people who struggle with multiple identities, they feel caught between different worlds, their parents' expectations versus their expectations, and forming a new culture for themselves. So that's where I like to say the sweet spot is located in New York. We're all virtual.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

So accessible. Yeah, there's a lot of us. Yeah, there's a whole lot of us, millions of us, especially in the New York Digital. I mean, like in the Eastern Seaboard, right? Many of us are children of immigrants, and yeah, I mean, we're we're like the melting pot identity experience.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

And I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but I'll tell you my experience. So very quickly, all the time. When I was growing up, I didn't feel black enough or Caribbean enough. So I'm Caribbean American.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

So I didn't feel like an African-American. I always felt kind of you know hard checking that box, but then I don't feel Caribbean because if I go over there, they call me a Yankee. Like they don't consider me like a you know I'm just like that.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

I'm just like I'm just like you. When I go to Korea, they they treat me like a foreigner, you know. I don't do the Korean makeup and the skin bleaching. I don't do that. I don't really follow K-pop. I mean, yeah, I'm I'm I don't care about K drama. Like I I don't dress like the red, I don't like straighten my hair. And and I don't really feel like the typical American, right? But I am of a naturalized citizen. I am American, and then I don't really have a lot of Korean American friends because my, you know, there's some aspects of Korean culture I like, but I'm very picky. Yeah, I I get that, I get that. And so I I love just hanging out with people who who feel like misfits, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Yes. Have you ever heard of third culture kids? Yes, I have heard of third culture kids. If it was the target audience, that's what I kind of go for, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Yeah, yeah, and you know, there's something really fun about that because we we get to have this bicultural or multicultural fluency, but just as you said, like sometimes we we don't feel really at home in any yeah, yeah. Yes, and I guess the challenge is how do we feel at home within ourselves? Yeah, that's what it is. Because that's it.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

You want to so that my way of thinking is that people feel like, how do I fit in the box? How do I fit in the box? But then my thing is I want to help you realize you were never meant to fit in the box, never, and then once people embrace that, they just be good the anxiety goes down, the stress level goes, it doesn't fix everything in their life, but they feel like, yeah, I'm good. No, I don't gotta fit in this and this. No, I'm good exactly how I am. So you're understanding it, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:26

We don't need to fit in a box, we were never meant to fit in a box, right? Amazing. So what what's like what's ahead for you? What what are you looking forward to with your practice? With yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

So between you and I, I've never changed and everyone listening to this podcast, yeah. And everybody, well, yeah, and everybody. I don't know how many people that would be, but this is a very nice podcast. And I wanted to say this. I know someone that has worked with you, and they told me they were like just glowing, glowing. It's a mutual per. Obviously, we both know them, but so that that's really cool. As far as the practice, I'm thinking I would like I really like supervising and training. So I have some people who are either very close to being licensed or provisionally licensed. So I'd like to take more people on. I love trick teaching people about therapy because I feel like there's a very right way, right way, and a very wrong way. Now, it is an art, it's not necessarily a science, but I just don't like the kind of therapy people come to me and tell me that they're getting. They're very manualized, very cold, and disconnected. And I hear so much kind of stuff. So that in terms of to be on track, as you can see, I have a little bit of attention issue with the practice. I want to train more clinicians and attract more people so they can at least. I often tell people, just try one therapy session. I'm also not the kind of person where I say, well, based on the fact that you're exhibiting these signs and symptoms, I think you need to be here forever. No, come for one session if you want, or just a consultation, and you never have to come back again. But I just I wish people had the same experience I did when I first went to therapy. So it'll be attracting new and good clinicians, new clients, and then I'm working on a book, hopefully. Yeah, if I could find a publisher, it'll be great. So a book that teaches about therapy, but is also like I would say like a thriller, but it would be good. Oh, trust me.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

A thriller about therapy, and it teaches you about therapy too. So it teaches you about therapy, but it's a thriller, okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

And it seems very hard to, but I'm telling so imagine a nice story where you're hearing the ideas that I don't want to give too much away, but it always would be awesome. I love writing too. So, in terms of practice, that's where I'm thinking about going. I gotta figure this marketing thing out so I can get out to more people, but yeah, and I'm always honing my clip my skills at being a better therapist. I I love doing what I do.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

I I also love doing what I do, and just like you, I'm like a nerd about learning how to be a better coach and how to help people create change. But now I'm curious because you you mentioned this in a quick aside. What was your first therapy session like?

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Oh my god. Oh, thank you. Good question. How much time do we have? Okay, so when I so what happened is let me tell you like this. So I'm becoming a therapist. My family says, we don't go to therapy, right? Like there's nothing wrong with you, and like that's kind of shameful, all that stuff, whatever. So I go to my school. Remember, I'm going through like this weird transition where I'm coming from corporate America, and in my mind, I want to be aggressive and I want to be because this is what's been taught to me. I want to be the best therapist ever. So I go to my teacher and say, My professor, how do I want to be the best therapist? And they said, Steve, it's not gonna be from the textbooks. I'm gonna tell you right now, if you really want to be a therapist, you gotta go get it, you gotta go find a therapist yourself. So I'm like, okay, I'll try. They know that at Columbia, they're like world renowned, right? So I go to this therapist, and I don't remember if she asked me any questions. I just spilled my heart out and I just left feeling like the sky was pink or made out of candy. That's how I often like made it. That's that's what it felt like. I like a high. I don't know. It just felt so awesome talking to this person, letting everything out. Yeah, you know, yeah. So that was my first experience. And then at Columbia, they only allow you like six sessions. So I went for six sessions, and at the end, I she was gonna I'm sharing a lot here. I told she's like, okay, we're coming up to the sixth session. I said, I I I feel like you don't like me. I don't know why I said I said, Do you not like me? Like, why are you why do you want to get rid of me so easily? And she's like, No, I do like you, but you know, it's limited or something like that. But since the experience was like, I've shared a lot about myself, but and this was like 10 years ago, guys, so don't judge me. So after those sessions, I went and found a therapist. So I'm on a train, I'm gonna tell you real fast, New York City, and I have my book. I'm reading and nodding off, and it says it's a textbook they give you called Foundations of Counseling. Yeah, and this lady, older lady's passed by, I said, Oh, that's a nice book. You know, I'm a therapist. And I'm like, Okay, whatever. And she's like, Oh, you know, here, if you're ever looking for a therapist, just let me know. And me, because I'm so insecure, I'm like, she, that's just a pleasantry. You know how Americans are today. So I'm like, I call her and I said, Well, you know, you said you you're doing this therapy thing. Is it okay if I try? She tells me how much she charges, and then I'm like, I there's no way I could afford that. At the time, I you know, I'll be honest, I'm like, I'm a college student. She tells me already, I'm like, can't afford it. I said, she said, Well, how much can you afford? I said, I think I could afford $35. They're like, I'm like a kid, like, you know, I'm I think I can fight afford maybe $35. I'm not working. Said, you know what? We'll treat this like a scholarship. And I still had that therapist to this day because you know, I love this person. And I the type of therapy I do, I do with her is like a lot more long-term, exploring things that's beyond just symptom management, which I try to help people too. So that was my experience with therapy. That's I got into it, and you know, I I love it, I think it's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

Yeah, I guess that's the key, one of the key differentials because with a coach, like I help people achieve a goal, and then they achieve the goal, and we're like, okay, you want to do a little bit more, but you know, you're you're off to the races. But sometimes you like you, like I know the people who work with a therapist, it's like a lifelong relationship, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Long-term.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

The idea is that you know, at least for me, so a lot of people, and even the people I work with, they probably don't want that. That's fine. But for me, I saw it as there's something called the Jahari's window. I don't know if you ever heard about it. I'm not gonna get you textbook, but there's a the person that you know, the person that you present yourself to the world as, then there's another side, but really the biggest side is the part that no one knows. So it's the high, the part that you're not seeing, other people don't know. And I really have valued understanding myself to the highest level. That's why I feel less rigid now. I feel way more authentic. But yeah, so that's been my story.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Amazing, amazing. And you know, some of my clients they choose to work with both a therapist and a coach. Yes, and and so I guess, yeah, why not? Why not?

SPEAKER_00 36:53

100% because I think therapists are limited, and this might sound shocking, like, oh, he's shooting himself in the foot. I don't think so. I think therapists are limited, and you'll probably never hear anyone say it, but I'll say it because they like to talking badly about coaches. But I'll tell you like this yes, coaches don't diagnose or whatever, but we're kind of bound by a lot of things. There's confidentiality, and I know coaches probably do the same too, but we're really bound by confidentiality, so much so that if you're my client and I see you in the street, according to the textbook, I'm supposed to turn and move the other direction. Like it's very weird that that, and then once you bring up suicide, like the conversation stops because now I have to do an assessment. Do you get what I'm saying? There's this regulatory thing where I'm constantly, I want to help people, but I'm constantly thinking, shit, what happens if the board hears about this? There's a sense of like, I don't want to be too active on social media for fear that this regulatory body will come and say, You're a clinician, you passed the board exam, and you know you're not supposed to. So I see it to say, I think we're limited in some way, and maybe coaches are too, but yeah. So I so you need both. I think both is awesome.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

My experience is the polar opposite. Really? Like I collaborate, like I just did a workshop where my client and I taught a class together, and you know, we made money together, we advertised our faces off on social media. I mean, I did, and I was like talking about her experience, telling her story because you know it it's it's a wonderful case study and an inspiring.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Imagine I had a client the other day, interestingly, an Asian male, and we come to the end of our time together. He says, Steve, you know, can I, you know, I really love how much you've helped me. Can I take you to coffee or something? I'd just love to learn more about you. Do you know how heartbreaking that was to just have to explain all that? I would love to, man. You know, who is the person in the world? Yeah. But, you know, according to this, if you're going by the textbook uh and being Orthodox, you have to like, there's all these weird things like why can't I go to somebody's wedding? They might invite me, say, Steve, I would really, you've been such a help. I thought now I gotta be awkward and say, Well, you know, I'm really not allowed to, and this and that.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

I have a question. I have a question. A couple years back, Jonah Hill. Okay, yeah, Jonah Hill Jonah Hill made a documentary with his therapist.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

It's on Netflix. Interesting. I mean, I gotta look that up.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Yeah. And Jonah Hill like reveals, but like they do therapy in the movie. I forget exactly what it was called, but it was it was a really heartwarming. I mean, I liked it because you know, there is again, there's a therapeutic element to the work I do, and there's that one-on-one, you know, that that client coach, that the dynamic, that rapport, and it was so beautifully displayed in this movie.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Yes, I mean imagine that. So, in order for that to happen, because it can't happen, yeah, it becomes very legalistic. Like, okay, here's this disclosure form, or you know, you're consenting that this is allowed, or not, and if that becomes so another, I don't know if you have intake forms, but we have to give out intake forms. I cringe when I see those forms. This is what means. Sometimes you may discuss distressing, so yeah, but that's really cool. I'm gonna check that out.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Yeah, so sometimes therapists are like, We want to become coaches, and every once in a while a coach is like, I want to become a therapist.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

So I love both. I love, love, love, love, love both.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Yeah, amazing, amazing. Okay, so before we wrap up, tell us how would you describe your therapy style?

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Okay, my therapy style, so I'm trained in something called EMDR, eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing EMDR, right? All this type of stuff, but my approach is tailored to each person. So I believe that every person gets a different type of therapy. One of the really, if it was to be a hallmark, so just like I'm talking to you now, is how I am as a therapist, vulnerable. I don't monopoline by sharing too much about myself, obviously, but vulnerable, but I do something called here and now. And what that means is I let people know how they're coming across to me in real time. Most therapists do not do that. So let's say you're talking uh with people and you're like, I don't know why my dates aren't going well, or I don't know why this person keeps having this negative reaction. I will put myself in a vulnerable position and say, hey, you know, Jamie, let me tell you what it's like for me to sit with you now. Most therapists don't like to do that, it feels very uncomfortable. So that's a hallmark of what I do. Just giving people uh a window into like how they are actually coming across to other people, which I think is cool.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

That's so interesting. I do I do some of that in my coaching too. I'm like, okay, your facial expression right now. Imagine bringing this to that meeting, right? Like, how open you feel. Just bring this to that email. Yeah, I I do a I do an element of that too. Very cool, very cool. Well, uh, where can people go to learn more about New York wellness counseling services?

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Yeah, you go to nmwellness.com, you can check out the blog. That's where I post some of my blogs are really rants about the ways I think about therapy, ways I think about the world. And you know, so you can go there, you can find me on LinkedIn, and I have an Instagram, it's not that popular, but sometimes I post things there as well. And a YouTube channel. I haven't been active on there either. I probably should be, but yeah, I if you want very short clips about how I think about the world or how I think about therapy, how I approach things, you can find it there too.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

All right, and this this interview will also go on YouTube. So yeah, all right. Well, thank you so much for joining us on Risky Conversations. And so, what I'm learning from you is that the risky conversation you had, owning your career decision, is now serving many, many people who need mental health, expert mental health support in the New York, New Jersey area. So amazing. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

All right, thank you, Evan.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Thank you for joining me today on Risky Conversations. Remember, everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. And when done well, your self-advocacy becomes an act of service. If you're ready to de-risk your own career evolution, I invite you to book a free hour-long consultation at jamwecoach.com slash apply. J A M I E L E E C O A C H dot com slash apply. We'll map out your custom blueprint to confidence and get you on the path to being better paid on your own terms. Let's make your next conversation the one that changes everything. Toxin