SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hello, I'm Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics. And I help them get promoted, get better paid without throwing anyone under the bus. How? By blending proven communication strategies with brain shifting neuroscience techniques. In this podcast, we explore the stories and strategies of Gutsy women and allies who've braved speaking up and navigated their careers forward. We're here to de-risk the conversations that feel the most daunting. Advocating for yourself and your growth. Let's dive in. Welcome to Risky Conversations. And why? Because everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. I'm really thrilled to have Debbie Heiser on the podcast. Welcome, Debbie. Thank you for having me, Jamie. It's an honor. Yeah. Debbie is the founder of the Little Life, where clarity becomes currency and alignment becomes a woman's greatest edge. I love that. So good. And Debbie helps purpose-driven women reclaim their power, lead with confidence, and create sustainable success rooted in identity, alignment, and strategic action. I love all of this because what I'm what I'm sensing is that you're a great coach. You're a great coach who helps women make more money.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Thank you. Yeah. And the money part of it, I I talk about in the actual advertising, and part of why I do that is we are usually high-achieving women. You know, we're doing a business or a career because it's bringing us value, but also because it's bringing us currency. And we live in a three-dimensional world where we have to pay bills. And part of what I find is that particularly women have a hard time receiving. And so if we have a hard time receiving, then a lot of times we're pushing money away, not charging what we're worth, all of those types of things. So kind of looking at and saying, if you're a business owner, yes, we want to make impact, but we also want to make a living doing it and be able to do the things that we want to do from a financial freedom perspective. So yeah, just had to throw that in there.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

I believe it's Sally Krawchek who once said, nothing bad happens when women have more money.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I had not heard that quote. I love that. I'm gonna have to map that one for my own practice.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

I mean, it's it's a fun understatement because in my experience, when women have money, we invest it back into our community, into our families, into causes into ourselves, and then we, you know, we generate more currency of value. So yes. It's so good to have you here, Debbie. So, this is the question I ask all of my guests. The premise is that on the other side of a risky conversation is something worthwhile, is worth the risk. And so for you, uh, let's start professionally. What was something, a conversation that was really risky? And you were glad you had it because on the other side, there was more war, there was something worth the while of engaging in a risky conversation. What was that risky conversation for you?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Yeah, and Jamie, I'm sitting here thinking I should have anticipated this question, right? Because of the name of your podcast. But it was interesting because when you and I were speaking briefly before we started to record, Jamie asked me that question, and I thought, wow, I put myself in situations on purpose to have risky conversations because I'm a firm believer that people and circumstances come into our lives to show us where we're not free and also then where we become free. And I got that from my mentor and coach Peter Crohn. And so when I think about it, I would much rather have a more difficult conversation or a conversation that feels a little bit risky because it means I care, right? Like that I want this relationship to have some stickability, I guess. It's not a word, but I'm gonna create it, and have this be a meaningful relationship versus one that's more on the surface. So when you asked me that, I was kind of cascading through all of these different conversations, and many things have come to my mind, but from a professional perspective, back in 2021, so it's been about five years, I had a conversation. I was a CFO for a small business that actually I moved to Idaho for because I live in the panhandle of Idaho and I come from Kansas City. So it was a big change. And I was working in this business that I was in for a couple of years, and I started a business on the side, and I was consulting and doing some leadership work because I came from corporate and was a leader there. And COVID hit, and the business that I was a CFO for was in the revenue billing cycle for hospitals. And as we know, people weren't doing surgeries because of COVID. So I had a very uncomfortable conversation with my boss, who was also a good friend of mine, and basically told her she couldn't afford me anymore as a CFO, and that we had lost enough business that she could hire an accountant to run payroll. I didn't need to, you know, she didn't need me. And that was a really risky conversation on a lot of different levels, right? We had personally, I had introduced her to my business coach. She was being coached by her, we had become good friends. So there was a friendship element to that. There was the idea of me as someone that she was employing, saying, You don't need me anymore, and the risk of not having an income. And what was interesting about it is she even said to me, Well, you want to go into this coaching thing anyway, full time. So that's a good idea. And so to me, that risk was, and this is what I found in almost every risky conversation that I have. And again, risk means different things to different people, but for me, the risk, there's so much more reward on the other side. So Jen and I continue to be friends today. We don't talk as frequently as we used to, but we still reach out to each other. I'm going to San Diego in November and I'm hoping to see her when I'm there. And that was the pinpoint or the pinnacle for me stepping in full-time to my business. And so I stepped in full-time in May of 2021. And in 18 months, I went from 38K to a quarter of a million dollars and I haven't looked back, right? Like it just was so affirming to me that I was doing what I felt pulled or called to do. And so that risk really paid off in the reward of that, you know, of feeling the confidence, believing, and owning who I was at the core, and really learning a lot about who I was and realizing too that I had a lot of what I call double binds and loyalty packs when it came to leaving a W-2 job and moving into more of an entrepreneurial ship. Even though I was an entrepreneur, I still had security and a paycheck coming in every two weeks. And there's a very different feeling when that happens. So yeah, thank you for asking.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

I love that you said you engage in risky conversations on purpose. And the conversation you just shared with me, there was like factually, you were just confronting the math, the you know, financial situation. You can't afford me as a finance person. Let me manage up to the person who's employing me, but also is my friend. And sometimes telling the truth can feel hard, but it's also the best kind of tough love that you can give. And in this case, it was like you loving on yourself, but also your friend who happens to be your boss at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Absolutely. And Jamie, I teach a couple of classes at Gonzaga University, and one of them is a certificate, not a certification, but a certificate course in servant leadership. And I really feel like I am a servant leader. And many times people have this idea that a servant leader is someone, because we have a different meaning for the word servant, that I just am like a rug and I lay down. To me, being a servant to other people means I'm willing to have the tough conversations because I care. And so to me, it just fits into alignment with kind of the guiding principles that I try to live my life with.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Thank you for sharing that. And you mentioned a couple of things, the loyalty packs, the double binds. And a lot of women or people socialize as women experience that as a hurdle when it comes to even just like having a conversation with people, not even even when it's not all that risky.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

You know, like I I know some people in my coaching practice, like they struggle with just like saving the facts of their contribution. Or, you know, it's just networking and just having an informational interview with someone. It just feels very risky because why they're not sticking to the loyalty pact, they're not sticking to like, oh yeah, I just stay in this lane and do the task and do it again and again. So this kind of ties into the concept of competence becoming a survival strategy.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yeah. Yeah. And I want to back up for a second because there's a theme that when I coach, fear is just false evidence appearing real.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

Oh, it's an acronym. False evidence appearing real. That's so good.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Because our brain is designed to predict and protect, right? So our brain is trying to protect us from taking a risk, from going forward and doing risky conversations to taking just risk, period. So when we think about competency, I'm going to talk a little bit about what a loyalty pact and a double bind is because a double bind is where we say we have a desire. So I had a desire to start my own business, but the stronger desire was security. But that was in my subconscious. And until a coach brought that to my attention and brought that to my conscious brain, I wasn't able to look at that objectively. I just didn't understand why I was struggling so hard with stepping out and being able to take that leap to become an entrepreneur. That's a double bind. Now, a loyalty pact is where somewhat of importance in our life, if we do something that proves them wrong, then we're we're disloyal to them. So, as an example, my mother owned a business and she swore that the reason she got breast cancer was the non-bioidentical hormones that she took and the stress of owning her own business. So I felt like if I started my own business, I was gonna die. And if I didn't, I was making her wrong.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

So in other words, the loyalty pact is even when people's assumptions are incorrect.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Absolutely. And that was not that was not my story, that was her story, right? But in my subconscious brain that we're not aware of, I had this underlying thought that if I do that and I'm successful, I'm proving that she's wrong, which is not the case. It's untruth. Whenever there's chaos or confusion, there's an untruth in our brain. And it's just neuroscience. And we can't deflect messages that go into our subconscious brain. And the subconscious brain is what creates belief. And the belief is attached to your identity, which is why then, because identity creates the actions and the habits that we create. So if you want to break a habit or change an action or a habit, we have to unwind what the belief is. That's why people that set New Year's resolutions or say, I'm going to go to the gym all the time, start to fade off after a bit, because they haven't really attached to the identity or the belief system that they have. So when I think about competency, that ties into this because so many times, and I see this in both men and women. So actually, what I'm talking about is for people, regardless of what gender they choose to go by. And what happens is they think, oh, I'm not competent enough. I need to go get that next certification or I need to educate myself more. Or I remember when I first started out even receiving coaching. It was okay for me to pay thousands and thousands of dollars to get a master's degree, but it wasn't okay to pay thousands of dollars to have a coach. And I learned a lot in my master's, don't get me wrong, but I have grown exponentially by paying a coach, but that just wasn't okay in my tribe, right? Like that's not a thought process that we used. It was okay to get an education, but not to get an education from a coach. So that competency piece a lot of times gets in the way because deep down we don't believe we have worth. Why would someone pay me to know this? Why would someone pay me to coach them through this when they already have it inside of them? It's just my job to help them find the teacher within. Right. So we we buy into those stories and I see that stopping people so much. Like honestly, what I do is yes, I help people bring in competency or not competency, excuse me, currency and make money, but ultimately I'm helping people heal. I'm helping people unwind messages that we have learned. And human development says you learn things from zero to seven. Right? There are impactual, impact, impactful, I can't speak today, impactful things that happen to us that carry on all through our life. You know, you talk about a risky conversation. I want to share a personal one that I had. So all of my life, I have felt like that men in my life have not had my back. Right? It impacted my almost, I was with someone, I was married for 29 years and we were together for 30 and divorced in 2020. And I never felt like my husband had my back. I never felt like my son has had my back until recently. So I was talking to my father, and all of my life I had heard the story about my birth, and my dad was in boot camp for the Vietnam War and was, you know, thank goodness didn't get deployed, but was in the East. And my family was from Kansas. And so my mother was staying with my grandmother. And I heard the story all my life that my dad, he just wasn't there. They never talked about my dad being there. So I had told my dad on a trip that I took, I said, I want to sit down and have a conversation with you as a person. I don't know you as a person. I know you as my father. And so I just really want to understand your background and where you came from. And so I asked him about how did that feel not being around when your first child was born? And he's like, What do you mean? And I said, Well, you weren't there. And he said, Debbie, within 24 hours, I was at the hospital and met you for the first time. Like I immediately flew into Fort Scott. Your grandmother picked me up in Fort Scott and drove me to the hospital in Chinook, Kansas. I was 50 some odd years old, Jamie, before I heard that story. And it changed my perception about men having my back, right? Because my subconscious brain, my dad wasn't a part of the picture, all from stories that I had heard. Never once had they said that he was actually there. So to me, that was a little bit of a risky conversation to ask him about something. You know, I didn't necessarily share with him this thought process that I'd had my entire life, but like just asking those questions to learn more about him was a little bit of a risk. And how he met his current wife after my mom had passed away. And, you know, just different things about him then changed the perceptions and the subconscious messaging I had received from my grandmother, my aunts, you know, all of these people that told this story that was funny about my mom and the birth of me. So yeah, I know you didn't necessarily want to get into that, but I the competency piece of it really comes into play because of the messaging and this idea of worth. I just had a conversation this morning with someone that's running for office in Idaho and about this idea of owning who we are, owning our brilliance of who we are, and not buying into that we're taking up too much space or that we're being too vocal or too this and that we need to be smaller. And that's where that whole idea of am I competent enough to go do what I do? Just go out and do it.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

So thank you for all of that. There's so many elements I could relate to as a person who was born in very patriarchal South Korea, and it was kind of expected that boys' sons get treated better, and my mom have three daughters. So, and unlearning some of that conditioning that went deep into my beliefs and into my subconscious has also birthed my own coaching practice. And this, and so I'm curious, how do you coach people and their when a belief has gone unconscious or into their subconscious? What tools, what techniques do you offer people who can't consciously think about what they're believing, but they just their nervous system completely locks up, they freeze, or you know, they're just walking out the door even before. So, how do you coach your clients with their nervous systems?

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Yeah, Jamie. So one of the things that I do is I've adopted some tools that actually one of my great mentors, Dr. John Horsman, who started the servant leadership program at Gonzaga, provided to me we do nature walks. So before I start with any client on a VIP day, when we go, I have an October retreat in Sandpoint, Idaho, that I do this, I do this with the mastermind that I run, where we actually take time to slow down because when you slow down, you can actually speed up. And so we do nature walks. I do, I have tools that I use to help us understand perspective. And it's based off of the indigenous tribal, kind of almost like a medicine wheel, where you go in four different directions to look at something in a different perspective. So I have a lot of those tools. I will tell you, Jamie, the the easiest way for me to coach someone, and this is why a lot of times when people sign up, even as a private client, they get bonus to VIP day with me, where we spend, you know, the majority of a day together figuring out what they want. And I talk to them about their family of origin and upbringing, because the linguistic environment, the words that people use can really help you cue into what some of those binds are. Because 99.9% of the time, the people that I work with, they're not even aware because you're not aware of what's running in your subconscious. And you dream to be able to kind of process through that subconscious, but many times they're just not aware of it. So having conversation with people and really finding out how they were brought up, what what kind of stories do they have about money, what type of stories do they have about humility, what type of stories do they have about being a powerful individual? And how many times have they been told to make themselves smaller? Then that gives me a kind of a clue into those subconscious messages that they have that I can then bring to their awareness so that then they can take the tools that I give them and start to become aware of them, and then I can help guide them as they go forward. You know, I'm a firm believer too. Don't hire a coach unless they have a coach. And, you know, because as coaches, it's important for us to continue to be self-aware. Self-awareness is one of the top 10 characteristics of a servant leader. And the more aware we are of ourselves, the more aware we are of other people and where they're at in their journey. And then for me, it's about being able to help them without judgment. Like I don't judge anybody, I don't think there's such a thing as right or wrong. It's just where we're at, right? We place value on right or wrong and create that line, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

And so speaking of speaking on the topic of slowing down, right? That's such a great going on nature works, nature walks because it engages your peripheral vision, right? Which helps to engage your parasympathetic nervous system, rest and digest, right? So you can feel that sense of safety and things slowing down where you can raise your awareness. But slowing down feels like the most hardest thing to do for a lot of people, myself, person self included, when you know, work is go, go, go. Entrepreneurship can be so fun that you just want to go, go, go. Or people who work inside corporations, you know, the demand is high, they're constantly on their devices, checking email, responding. And people also burn out running their own businesses because there are no constraints, but they got like so much like desire to go. And I, you know, I've coached some of my clients who felt that they had to shut down their business because it was burning them out. And so you coach people, you coach women who have revenue but are burning out. So Yeah.

unknown 21:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yeah. The number one thing that I find is I ask people, and I guess I would ask. You this too, Jamie. And I know you grew up in South Korea. You said so there might have been a slightly different, but I think you're on that same wavelength with this. But I always ask them, Were you taught or told finish your chores or finish your homework before you go play?

SPEAKER_02 22:17

I was not told that. I was the person telling it to my little sister. I never did it myself. But I'm like, that's a really good thing to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Well, and the reason I ask that is because if you're an entrepreneur, the work is never done.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Never ever done.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

So we've learned we can't play until the work is done. And that's a setup for failure. And honestly, I attract more clients. I make more money the more I play. I'm not hustling. I mean, am I doing things? Yes, I'm on podcasts. I create, I have my own podcast, I take people on retreats, I'm doing work. Don't get me wrong. But when I play and have fun, because let's face it, work needs to be fun. If it's not fun, then why am I doing it?

SPEAKER_02 23:10

So play means have fun in the process of creating something. Or does it mean something different? It's you're not talking about, you know, bubble baths in the middle of the day, you know, spy excursions.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Well, why not? Why not? You know, and here's what I would say you know, like looking at life as an adventure. And so many times we're looking into the future. Now, don't get me wrong, I think it's important to have a vision, but we're not present in the moment. And so when we're not present, we're not we're not experiencing abundance. Abundance is more than just currency, right? We're it when you're present, you experience abundance in so many things. You experience gratitude. You asked about tools. One of the first things I do, and I have a WhatsApp conversation in a group with the mastermind that I run, and every day I've asked them since January 1st to send three things they're grateful for every night. And they continue to do it because it physiologically changes the chemistry in your body. And you start to look for things that you're grateful for. You start to look for things that have gone well, right? So when I think about playing, playing means many different things to people, but ultimately realizing the work is never done. So if you stop and you go take a nature walk, or you go hang out at the beach for part of the day, or you know, I'm doing reels on my dock in my bathing suit, you know, like, and if I'm enjoying my life, that's what's attracting people. Not the I'm in a hustle and work hard. Nobody wants that. Everybody's been in that game, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

What is what is your definition of hustle?

SPEAKER_00 24:49

What is the definition of hustle? Hustle to me is that feeling of what I call the instapot pressure, where you feel a lot of pressure that I have to go out and sell, you know, because we're everything in life is a sales call. We're influencing people, but I have to go do these things. I get into the victim game. I have all this list of things that I need to do versus, you know what, I'm gonna enjoy what I'm doing today. And if I'm not, I don't necessarily find joy in inputting my mileage into QuickBooks. But what I do find joy in is the fact that what happens from a tax credit perspective from that, right? And so what I'll do is I'll throw on, you know, Bridgerton or something and watch a couple of shows why I input my mileage, or I'll go do it down on the dock, do something fun with it. But we've been taught something so opposite of that, like be intense, stay in the work, do the work until it's done before you go have a good time or enjoy the present. And I I work from the opposite of that.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

I think it is so true because we could be doing the same exact behavior task, but if it's coming from pressure, research has shown that your performance actually is reduced and it's it's more conducive to burnout. But if you're doing the same thing but from this different energy of like, oh, I get to do it, right? Grateful.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah, the joy and the joy in it. You know, I remember, so I'm gonna age myself here, but my first corporate job. Now I come from a teaching background, but my first corporate job, I sold yellow pages back in the day when we you might be young enough that you don't remember yellow pages. Oh, I remember. I remember and I had a boss that told me, you know what, you're not selling yellow pages, you're selling hopes, wishes, and dreams. Because if you help clients bring in more customers or clients to their business, they're gonna make more money, which they have more financial freedom and can go do the things that they want to do. Now, fast forward and threading throughout my life, I'm doing the same exact thing today. I'm just not selling yellow pages. Right? Like I'm helping people actualize their hopes, wishes, and dreams and helping them both with my executive background, with the setup and the strategy and the marketing strategies and all the structure, but then also helping them unwind the messages because I can have the best laid strategy and the best business plan. But unless I deal with the beliefs and who I think I am and what my identity is and start to unwind those and unravel them, the business plan, I'm gonna keep hitting a wall.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

And then lower my vibration because I think there's something wrong with me.

unknown 27:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Yes, chuckling out of like, yes, then there.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Yeah, absolutely. Yes, you know, and we all face it, even when we level up. Like when I level up, I call my counselor, I call my best friend, I I ask the people I mastermind with, hey, hold me accountable to this. I'm leveling up and I know on the other side of this it's gonna be fantastic, but I need extra support right now.

unknown 27:50

Right. Right?

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Because holding you in that community support.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Absolutely. Right, yes. And having people believe in me sometimes more than I believe in myself, right? To help that support piece of it. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Yeah. Excellent, excellent. Well, tell us where can people go to learn more about working with you, joining your mastermind, your podcast.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Yeah, yeah, thank you. So the best place is to go out to my website, and it's called thelituplife.com, and all the things are out there, the programs that I run. I also have a group that right now is being housed on Facebook, but it's called Build Her. And so you can locate me there. But if you just go out to the website, all of the things are there. I'm a firm believer that if I'm sending to my website, you better have access to anything and everything I do. My podcast is out there, a link to get to it. It's called The Lit Up Life with Debbie Heiser. And so, yeah, I just love to have conversations with people. I'm super curious about people and what brought them into what they're doing. Like, I'd love to hear more about your story, Jamie. We might have to hop on another phone call. But ultimately, you can find anything there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

Yes, yes. Well, thank you so much for your valuable time, for sharing all your experiences and your risky conversations. And we'll talk soon.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Okay, thanks so much, Jamie. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Thank you for joining me today on Risky Conversations. Remember, everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. And when done well, your self-advocacy becomes an act of service. If you're ready to de-risk your own career evolution, I invite you to book a free hour-long consultation at jameleecoach.com slash apply. J A-M-I-E-L-E-E-C-O-A-C-H dot com slash apply. We'll map out your custom blueprint to confidence and get you on the path to being better paid on your own terms. Let's make your next conversation the one that changes everything toxin.