SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello, I'm Jamie Lee. I'm an executive coach for smart women who don't like office politics. And I help them get promoted, get better paid without throwing anyone under the bus. How? By blending proven communication strategies with brain-shifting neuroscience techniques. In this podcast, we explore the stories and strategies of Gutsy women and allies who've braved speaking up and navigated their careers forward. We're here to de-risk the conversations that feel the most daunting. Advocating for yourself and your growth. Let's dive in. Welcome to Risky Conversations. And why? Because everything that's worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. And today I'm really delighted to have a really cool person. Kimberly Lai. And I met Kimberly while training to improve my coaching skills. And in one of our coach trainings, we did this technique where we learn how to apply in the coaching world we call it sub-modalities. In other words, how we file information through our sensory details. And Kimberly uh shared with me uh in this practice session with me how much she loves this dance and how much it brings her life and joy, and she loves the music. And it just brings a big smile to her face. And just being in the same room with her and seeing her experience the living memory of this dance inspired me to take her dance lessons for a whole year. And the dance is a very specific dance, it's called Brazilian Zook, spelled uh Z-O-U-K. And there's a thriving Zook community in New York City, and I got to be a part of it before I moved out of the city. I got to go uh to conferences and socials all because Kimberly Lai was in my space and she uh spread this infectious joy for the art of uh Brazilian zook dancing. So, Kimberly Lai, thank you so much for changing my life, spreading the joy of dancing and joining us on Risky Conversations. Thank you for having me, Jamie. It is such a pleasure. Do you remember being uh you know in that practice session with me and how we were learning this particular technique? And you were just showing me what it was like for you to be hearing the music, just anticipating the dance moves, and it was just like this joy that you were duding. I went, I want some of that. Whatever she's having, I want some of that. I'll have that.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Yeah, yeah. I think I've had this general conversation with so many people about Zook so many times, I have to confess. I do not know if I remember the specific instance, but it does sound a lot like me. And I think that just based on the kind of coaching that we were doing, there's so much overlap. This is also part of why I love Zook so much. There's so much wisdom to be learned from how we live inside our bodies, how we move, how we feel things, and so much of that can translate into the ways that we're showing up in other ways in our lives. I'm pretty sure that's probably part of what you and I were nerding out about in that moment, and why I was so infectiously joyful about this stance because I think it's brought me and a lot of other people I know as well so many lessons about it.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah. And you're not just a zoo dancer, you're also a leadership facilitator.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

I am very lucky to have had the pleasure of working with a lot of managers and executives on people skills, communication skills. And honestly, I think there's so much overlap in all of these different things. Dancing is just another way of relating to other humans through a nonverbal connection, just as leadership and leading people is a different way of relating to other humans in a corporate setting. Outside of that, there's so much overlap in how the skills mix and mingle and translate from one setting to another. And I feel like being a leader in Zook, learning to lead, learning to follow, doing both roles has taught me a lot about how leadership and following shows up in verbal communications, whether it's in the workplace, outside of it, etc.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah, I love that because what I've learned as a change worker, as an executive coach, is that our knowledge, our wisdom, or intelligence isn't just cognitive. It's not just about the ability to string assortment of words. AI is probably better at that than the underlord, we thank you. The underlord, right? The overlap you talked about engages our sensory capacities, our different types of intelligence, the social intelligence, our interceptive right, our ability to feel our bodies from the inside out, right? Emotional intelligence and spatial intelligence. Yeah. So tell us how'd you get started being such a cool person? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

I don't know how to answer that. And the way that still comes off as humble of old commute making me sound cool. I was gonna say, actually, just based on something said at the very end there about how there's so much sensory information in our bodies that translates well into how we're talking, how we're thinking, right? It's not just cognitive. And maybe this kind of ties into the general question of how did I get to be so cool? I think I think a lot of it really boils down to just the art of being human and the art of caring about people and the art of being present with people, and they're all the same stuff. And a lot of what I see in leadership work today, whether it's in the group setting, trainings, facilitation, or even in one-on-one coaching, and even in dance, I also teach it is people come in and they want very specific outcomes and they want to know the clear path to getting there and they want to know the exact answers, and it feels very, very cognitive. And while the brain is important, they're completely missing out on the other side of it, where it's not necessarily just a formula. It's it's more of that. There's also a felt sense, there's an embodied sense. And when you step away from trying so hard to get the exact right words, and you can understand more the way you want to feel when you deliver this message, the way you want to feel when you create the presentation, or the way you want to feel when you show up to a coaching session. If you are the coach yourself, the way you want to feel when you enter into the dance, that can take you so much further than just studying the words alone or the exact right script or the exact right framework. Those frameworks aren't flexible to situations. They fit a particular instance. And I think when you get more into the foundations of like why it works the way it does, how it works the way it does, how it's meant to feel, I think that can be more easily translated into all these other different things. So I don't know if that answers to be such a cool person as per in your language. I think it's more just thinking about I don't know, what are the what are the different skills that make us really good at being humans and make us good at caring?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

I cannot think of a better answer. I love that. Right. And this is it's it's unorthodox because our world seems to always be grasping for how do I how do I do this? How how to do this? How do I do the dance? How do I do the leadership? How do I say the things and get my point across and get other people to be behaving just the way I would like them to be? Right? But cadabra, some some string of words that I can say or some behavior, some movement that I can just take on. And it all starts from within beyond the cognitive level, asking yourself, how do I want to feel? And I ask that question, you know, like a broken record, just exactly that question to myself, but to also my coaching clients in every single one of my sessions, even when it is something that can feel like it's a formula, like salary negotiation or asking for a promotion. It's like ultimately, but how do you want to be right? How do you want to feel on the inside as you're doing that and on the other side of having spoken up for yourself? Yeah. So maybe we can rewind the clock a bit, and maybe you can tell us about where your journey to dancing and then to leadership facilitation. Where did it begin? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

I got very lucky in both circumstances of being able to meet the exact right people at the exact right time. So I'll talk a little bit first about dance because that one happened earlier. So I had wanted to do dance for a very long time. As a little girl, I took like two years of little kid ballet, and then my mom wanted me to quit because it was too expensive. And then she put me in a more useful life skill like learning to swim. But I had this dream of dancing for a really long time. And I think I was so drawn to it because I thought of dance as one of the most pure forms of being able to express art and like express your soul and what it is you're trying to say, because it's just your body. There's nothing else there, it's just you moving. And by the time I got around into college, I had quit swims by then, much to the sadness of my mom. And then I joined a non-competitive dance team, which was super, super fun. And then I got involved with this housing situation where everyone else there was a dancer. They did different kinds of partner dance. Some of them did salsa, some of them danced this other dance called fusion, some danced blues. And naturally they brought me out dancing, and that's how I started out doing partner dance. Fast forward a couple years down the road, I was at one of the fusion dances, and I met someone who was a Zook dancer, and he brought me into the Zouk world, and then it just kind of continued on from there. I think I had never felt a certain kind of movement that spoke so deeply to me and just felt so innately like the way my body wanted to move and wanted to express. And so I've stuck with it ever since. And also at the time, I was learning so many unexpected and really valuable lessons that I also needed in my life. Didn't know it at the time, but I was learning a lot about trust, about trusting my body, trusting myself, trusting my feeling, and trusting other people in many different kinds of ways. And so that was very valuable. Around that same time, as it just so happened, I was newly starting out my career. I was in healthcare consultant and miserable. It was freaking terrible hours. I hated my job. And I remember this feeling of like, huh, I'm surrounded by all my coworkers and they seem to love this stuff. And I really do not. They could look at, you know, the ump-teethed diabetes stroke that came to market and all the latest research around this new Medicare policy that just got passed. They would be happy doing that all day long. And I wish to never look at this again. And at the time, I was really lucky. I got promoted into a manager musician really early on in my career. And so I started managing people. And I remember thinking to myself, man, if I could just spend all day thinking about how to be a better manager, how to help people fulfill the potential, do what it is that they really want to do, how I can support my team, if I could do my research all day on that instead of looking at this drug and that pricing and how to get this kind of healthcare access, I would be so happy. And I was talking about a friend of mine, and he was like, Kimberly, you can do that, right? Like that's an actual job. There's a whole field for this. It's called learning and development. So I made a pivot into leadership development, which is a field I'm still working in today. I got really lucky again with that. Started working with execs and managers from a super tender young age and learned so much just through many, many, many rounds of experience and trial and error and so many workshops, so many different kinds of coaching engagements until I came here now. And I think I was very fortunate to get a lot of these lessons really early on in my life and in my career. I was also very lucky to be in the right spaces at the right time. And I also felt very lucky to know myself really well and to know what mattered and to know what I cared about and know what I wanted to do. And I think those things helped me get to where I am today.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

And you mentioned that you've been lucky several times, but luck doesn't just come to those who wait around, it comes to those who get prepared and work hard, right? It's true. And I'm curious, while you were navigating that pivot, what was a risky conversation? Perhaps it was one of the riskiest conversations for you then.

unknown 13:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

You're like, ooh, I'm glad. Now that I'm on the other side of it, I'm glad I engaged in that risky conversation.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Oh man, I think there were so many risky conversations I had, both even internally just with myself, admitting to myself what I really wanted, and then being able to admit it to other people. So even just that pivot that I made away from healthcare, my whole life, I had thought that I was gonna be a doctor or do something in the healthcare industry. And once I finally got there, I was miserable and I had no idea what to do. And after working in consulting for a couple of years, I was starting to reach my breaking point. And I think admitting it to myself was kind of the first step, and then telling everyone I knew. And I was very particular about the kind of job I wanted. I was like, these are the hours I want to work. This is the minimum salary I will accept. This is exactly what I want to do day to day. This is the kind of impact that I want to have. Here's what I want to be doing. And I told everyone. And I heard from so many people they were like, Kimberly, that's impossible. You can't guess that. You need to play smaller. Like, you need to be more realistic. And I kept saying, Nope, I want this job or bust. It's gonna be this job. And I think, again, it was partly luck, but I think it was also because I was so crystal clear on what I wanted and very adamant that I told everyone. And then it really just kind of happened for me. Like, I don't know if you believe in manifestation. The jury's still out on that for me, but I will say there have been an uncanny number of times in my life where I have been extremely clear. I've said, this is exactly what I want, and I will accept this for nothing else. And then it just kind of shows up in my life in a few months down the road. So that was a few months down the road.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

And what were those few months in between you deciding very crystal clear what you wanted in the few months before it just happened? What were those few months actually like? I'm curious. Oh my god. Asking for a friend.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Who might that be, Jamie? Who might that be? Terrifying. I especially because when you hear from so many people around you, they're like, you realize that's crazy, right? You're not gonna get that. You're so young. Who is gonna hire somebody at this age to teach managers that like have a number of years of experience in managing? That is your age. Like, who is going to do that? Who is going to listen to you off of them?

SPEAKER_00 16:23

And you are for me too, you're one of the youngest leadership facilitators that I personally have met and engaged with. Most of people tend to have gray hairs, but I imagine you bring a new kind of fresh youthful energy that many leadership facilitat facilitators can no longer do. I mean, you probably bring an asset, but thank you. Uh you tell me more. So you said the couple of months between uh deciding very clearly what you wanted, even though other people told you it was impossible, and you're it actually happening. Yeah. Terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

Absolutely terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

What did you do with all of your felt sense and your ability to know what you want to feel like? I I'm curious, what did you do when it was terrifying?

SPEAKER_03 17:17

What did I do when it was terrifying? Yeah. I stuck with it.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

I think it was needing to make the intentional choice over and over again every hour of every day of am I gonna listen to the voices that say this is impossible, that say I can't have this, that say you can't have this kind of life, no one has this kind of life, or am I going to listen to the voice that says, well, why can't I? And if it doesn't exist yet, yeah, if it doesn't exist yet, I better go create it for myself.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Just got chilled. Just making intentional choices moment by moment, day by day. Yeah. And just deciding to, I'm gonna put aside the voice of doubt. I'm just gonna put it to the side. Yes. Yeah. And it wasn't behind me or thing.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Yeah, it's not, it's not an easy thing to do. I know it's hard for many people. It was hard for me as I was doing it. It was hard every time I made the choice. And I didn't always make the choice successfully. But I think over time, especially the more you do that, it's just like any habit that you build. You can build the habit of listening to doubt, listening to fear, listening to your own imposter syndrome, or you can build the habit of choosing to believe in the possibility of something else that might be true and following where that might go.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

So good. Love it. I love it. And no wonder now you are a leadership facilitator now who's also a Zoo teacher. I've seen you teach internationally, I've seen you teach in like all sorts of places. So, I mean, here's the power of making intentional choices and sticking to them, even when it's terrifying. So, everyone who's listening to this who's ever been told that what you want is impossible or too hard, or you should stay at your stable but miserable job. Take note. This is the skill. Yeah. And so tell me a little bit more. How did it just actually happen?

SPEAKER_02 19:19

I keep putting it into quotation marks because there's a little bit of there's a little bit, a lot of luck, of course. And also there is, I think these little micro choices that ultimately lead up to you being in a position where luck can come find you, right? So part of the micro choice is again the decision you make every day to lean into what you know you really want and chase after it and create for yourself. That alone is already huge. Another micro choice is making it visible. Who do you tell? How do you share it? What are you sharing? And the more that you put it out into the world and the more that you lean into it for yourself, the more that the world can send back opportunities your way that are exactly what you're looking for. So, in practical terms, what really happened is I told everyone I knew. I was like, I hate my job. I want to quit ideally by the end of the year. This is exactly the job I want. Do you know anything like this? And I had, again, a lot of people that were like, girl, you're crazy. Hey, settle down. You need to call. And I had some people that, you know, wished me well in my journey, but didn't know anything. And I had some people that were like, you know, maybe let me put you in touch with this person. And I think maybe if you all had a conversation, see one of Volts from there, see what happens. And I got, and then I'll also have people that kept sending me opportunities that they thought might be a fit. Some of them were, some of them weren't, just to see what would happen out there. And it just so happened that someone sent me an opportunity that was to the T, Jamie. It was like I had written the entire job description, everything from here's what you're gonna do day to day, to this is the kind of company culture that we have, to these are your hours, here's your salary. It was literally the exact salary I had dreamt of, like on the dot. And even the application itself felt like it was fit for me. And I applied, I applied in December and they reached out to me in January. So even the timing of it was almost exact. It didn't quite happen exactly that way because then the pandemic hit. And so they actually froze hiring as many places did. But a few months down the road, they reopened it. And then by the following year, I was working full time as a leadership facilitator, talking to managers twice my age, killing them what to do. I said, Uh oh, that was a fascinating journey for me.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

And through that time, you were dancing, you're becoming an even more skilled Zook dancer, leader, and follower, right? Because there's a Partner dance. And then I'm curious how did the Zook experience and the Zook skills, the dancing skills, inform, like let's go back to what we were talking about at the very beginning of this. How how did it overlap for you? And I'm curious if you can give us like a snippet of an example of something like that in your leadership facilitation.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

So many things.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Oh, just one thing. I think the top one that's coming to mind is this idea of control, which is still a lesson. I am continually learning that Zook is continually teaching me. It's really interesting in partner dance because you have, for a dance like Zook, for example, you have a pretty clearly defined role of someone is the leader, they are creating the dance, and somebody is the follower. They are following the moves that are invited by the leader. And when you take this framework, it sounds like the leader is controlling the dance. And most people tend to think of leadership this way as well, which is why you see leaders with so much internal self-pressure. They're like, I have to do everything. I need to control everything. I am in charge. I am responsible. And it can be a lot to carry. And when things don't go according to plan, leaders freak out, they don't know what to do. It's hard to lean into any kind of resilience and adaptivity. Or it's also hard to allow space for other things to be in control, whether it's other leaders to influence you, it's the people following you to influence you and have their own autonomy, it's life circumstances opening you up to a different kind of direction than when you might have anticipated before. And I think both learning to, I started with following for Zook, and then later on, a few years down the road, learning to lead Zook taught me so much about how to be comfortable not knowing everything, not knowing everything that's gonna happen, not knowing what might happen five seconds ahead, living in the present, allowing other people to have influence and trusting them and trusting myself and listening really deeply, all of which are like quintessential leadership skills that really are at the root of leadership, whether you are following somebody else's lead or you yourself are the leader. After I finish learning to follow, not finished, we're always still learning, but once I started learning how to lead in Zooka as well, I think it really opened my eyes to a very different kind of perspective of leadership. I now think leadership at its core is really just about following the follower. Like you're listening deeply to the people that you are leading and you're thinking of what's best for them, in this case for corporate right or organizations, you're thinking about what's best for the organization, what's best for the team, what's best for the customers that you're serving, the clients that you're working with, and listening very deeply and staying present to that. And in other ways, letting them also have control, which isn't really, I think, typical of how people think of leadership when they first have it come to mind.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

So good. So good. Leadership is about following the followers. And that's what I also notice of my clients who really enjoy and care deeply and flourish as leaders, is they follow the followers. And it's become just like a practice, it's just an extension of who they are, always thinking about what do my team leaders want? And how can I listen and show that I'm listening to what they're sharing with me? Yeah. And I have so many thoughts about what you shared. It's beautiful. It's almost like a beautiful Zen paradox, because in in the practice of Zen, you learn to sit with the unknown. And the more you sit with the unknown, the more flexible, the more adaptable, the more alive you become, more fluid you become, more human you become. Exactly. And that's the thing about AI, which a lot of people are sort of concerned, rightfully so, about is that AI can be very confidently wrong, certain that it is in control.

unknown 26:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

When it doesn't actually know.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

No, they put that in very tiny font at the bottom that you know AI can make mistakes, but we're gonna hide it at the bottom so we kind of forget. I feel like we are, as a world, really entering. I mean, we've always kind of been heading this way, but I think especially now more than ever, we are entering this weird, huge pressure chamber where we feel so strongly like we have to know things and we have to be right and we have to do it well, and we have to be perfect, and we have to be in control. And the more that we feel this, the more stressed we are, and the more we chase it, and then the more stressed we are, and then the more we chase it, and it just becomes a self-reinforcing loop. And I see things like everyone's talking about this. These either not new ideas, but the rise of AI and the rise of social media use, like all of these things just serving to further reinforce that. And I think my biggest desire and hope for all of my clients and the people that I work with is finding ways to be comfortable sitting with not knowing and sitting with things that feel uncertain or things that feel scary or things that feel vulnerable, or when we show up messy, and learning how to be able to be flexible and resilient and adaptive to that instead of chasing this feeling like we have to be in control of everything all the time.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

I took Brazilian Zook classes in year 2023 when we had that really, really big Canadian wildfire, and all of that smoke drifted into New York City, and the sky turned bright orange and hellish. And I remember being in a Zook class that very week when the sky was, and I was like, I'm so glad I'm in a room with other humans, and we are socializing nonverbally, we're relating and touching and moving to the rhythm together because it was one of the most calming nervous system, down regulating, you know, life-affirming things that we did. And it calmed my amygdala, my fear brain down. And I just felt like we're gonna be okay, you know, as long as we're moving with each other to the rhythm together, and like it just affirmed for me that yeah, we we can we can survive this. And I'm so glad that I had Zook through those very scary moments. So, again, thank you so much, Kimberly, for inspiring me to take those lessons.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Oh, it was my pleasure, Jamie.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

I'm so glad that you did it. It was such a joy to see you. Meets poo.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Yeah, and what we do know, the little that I do know is that our bodies are always sending us messages. The the body is sending signals to the brain, and the brain sends signals to the body, but the the signals coming from the brain is about 20%, and the signals from the body is about 80% of data. And so when we when we allow ourselves to breathe, you know, hold each other in in a in a partner dance move or meditation or whatever you do that allows you to be in your body, the the processing happens, and that's why it feels so good.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Yeah. I think so too.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

I think there's so much subconscious interplay happening within ourselves, happening with another person. That's like another thing that I learned from the zoo that was really important is this idea of trusting and trusting me to catch myself in my own body and trusting another person to notice things, take care of my body, hold it safely, move it safely, invite things that felt comfortable. It's a really different experience to feel it internally, live it, embody it, than to just talk about it conceptually. I think, yeah. I think that a lot of focus on change and growth is changing a little bit more recently. But I think it has been mostly on cognitive thought patterns, and people work really hard to just change the thought. And they're like, well, I know that this is how I'm supposed to be thinking, or I know that this is what I'm supposed to say. So okay, I'm gonna think that and I'm gonna say it, but why don't I feel any different? Why isn't it really changing, right? And we're neglecting an entire other half of our body, like we're neglecting the rest of it of how it's meant to feel, not just what we say, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yes, yes. And as you were saying that, I'd imagine there are some people, whether it is leadership or whether it's partner dance, they they just feel like, oh, oof, you know, oh, I'm scared. I'm scared of you know, having have to take on the extra responsibility if it's for leadership, or they're scared, oh, I don't know, I don't want other people. Oh, I'm afraid of what will happen if I join a partner dance class, yeah. So maybe we start with that particular the partner dance class fear as somebody who naturally exhibits so much joy and exuberance. I'm curious, how do you like how how would you approach a situation where either you were reluctant or hesitant or afraid? Like I I wonder if you've ever had that.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

But and if you did, I have had plenty of situations. Yeah, something wrong, I felt afraid of past the tender nervous for sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I I'm curious what word of advice you might offer somebody. It's like, yeah, I I don't know. That all sounds nice, but I'm afraid or I'm anxious to engage an actual in-person real dance.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

That is such a beautiful question.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

Here's the first thought that came to mind is our when we're sitting in fear, our brains are engaging a lot in all of the possibilities of what could go wrong. And my invitation to this person would be to allow equal, at least equal time, exploring the possibilities of what could go right, which is a lot easier said than done. I know. But I think when we allow ourselves to imagine the possibilities of what could go right, to take chances and take risks and do the things that feel scary. And only in so doing the things that feel scary can the world even have the opportunity to give us evidence that maybe some of those things, some of those possibilities can actually go right. But if we're never taking that chance, we're never taking that risk, we're never gonna find out. And we're only gonna continue to reinforce the story that scary things can happen, and therefore I can't do this. When you open, when you take the risk, of course it's scary. Of course, it's a big leap of faith, and I have felt it many times in my life before as well. But only when you try it, only when you open to that possibility can the world give you any kind of evidence that maybe it could be true.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Yeah, love it. Excellent. Thank you so much. Yeah. Is there anything I haven't yet asked that you would really love to share with our audience?

SPEAKER_01 34:11

No.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

I felt like maybe there should be something wise I should have said there, but the honest answer is no. You've had such beautiful questions, Jamie. I've loved getting to chat with you about all of this. This has been wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Where can people go to learn more about your dance lessons, about your leadership facilitation, and more?

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Yeah. So to find out my about my leadership coaching and facilitation, which is my job by day, they can find me on LinkedIn. It's just LinkedIn.com slash Kimberly dash h dash lie spelled L-A-I, so they can find me there. And then to find about my job by night, dancer by night, they can find me on Instagram at Kimberly, K-I-N-B-E-R-L-A I, a little bit of a pun, Kimberly Dancing, so they can find me there.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Very, very fun. Awesome, awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us on Risky Conversations, and I wish you many more happy dances. That's amazing, Jamie.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Thank you so much for having me. This has been an absolute joy to get to chat with you. And I wish you many more wonderful dances. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Thank you for joining me today on Risky Conversations. Remember, everything worthwhile is on the other side of a risky conversation. And when done well, your self-advocacy becomes an act of service. If you're ready to de-risk your own career evolution, I invite you to book a free hour-long consultation at jam thecoach.com slash apply. J A M I E L E C O A C H dot com slash apply. We'll map out your custom blueprint to confidence and get you on the path to being better paid on your own terms. Let's make your next conversation the one that changes everything. Talk soon.