Jamie Lee:
Welcome back, dear badasses!
Some of you are returning -- so good to have you back.
Some of you are listening to this for the first time -- so good to meet you here, welcome!
I should really say I’m so glad to be back after an unplanned brief hiatus from the podcast.
I was sick for about a week.
And though it was really tempting to power through, produce, and publish, I decided to walk the talk I give my own coaching clients.
Which is that no one gets promoted beating herself up to the finish line.
And there’s absolutely no upside to beating yourself up or pushing yourself beyond your comfort zone when you’re sick and unwell.
In fact, when you beat yourself up and push yourself when you're sick and unwell, you end up being sick even longer.
As one of my clients Brandy has said, I get to rest so I can be my best.
So I rested and it’s really good to be back.
Today I’m excited share with you a conversation I had with an amazing person and a great client Shama Rahman.
With Shama, we addressed the inconvenient truth that all ambitious women / WOC must embrace in order to negotiate career growth without burning out in the process
Which is that work is not your whole life. Getting promoted, getting better paid can be amazing and fun, but it is NOT the totality of your life. It is NOT the end all be all of your life’s purpose. Work is not your WHOLE life.
But your whole life -- with all its beauty, complexity, and messiness -- impacts how you show up to work.
Hard and difficult things in life HAPPEN -- they’re guaranteed to happen. No amount of career success is going to shield you from the hard and thorny parts of life -- like when you get sick.
Or when you lose a loved one and grieve them as long as you need to, because we grieve to the extend that we allow love.
In this ongoing pandemic, I imagine several of you can relate to the challenge of negotiating career growth while navigating through grief
My client Shama and I share several things in common, one of which is that we both lost our fathers in 2020.
We continue to feel the grief of losing our dads deeply
And in today’s interview, you’ll gonna hear from Shama how she used coaching to help her NOT to pretend like she's not grieving, or to bypass the human experience of grieving, but to honor it while pursuing professional growth in a sustainable way.
We also talked about perfectionism, anxiety, critical feedback, emotional labor, and the challenges of being a woman of color or being the first in your family to be thriving in a corporate landscape.
Whether you’re going through a tough time in your life, or whether you’re grieving, while also being ambitious, I think you’ll find this conversation inspiring and useful.
Without further ado, here's the interview with Shama.
[Music]
Jamie Lee:
Hello. Hello. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. I'm so excited to have on this week's podcast, one of my best clients, Shama Rahman. Did I say your name right?
Shama Rahman:
Yeah, actually, um, Shama Rahman. Um, but yeah.
Jamie Lee:
Okay. Thank you for the correction. Shama Rahman.
Shama Rahman:
Yeah,
Jamie Lee:
That's more correct. So Shama is the director of Brand Strategy at New York Magazine, and she's focused on growing the company's subscription business. She has over 10 years of experience as a brand marketer, workshop facilitator and creative consultant. Previously, she worked as a creative strategist at the Wall Street Journal and in brand marketing roles at the New York Times, Whitney Museum of American Art and Solomon R Guggenheim Museum. As a workshop facilitator, Shama has held workshops for New Inc. EyeBeam and the New School. She graduated from Smith College like me, and she studied economics, art history, museum studies, and is a member of the Smith College Museum of Art Advisory Board. She's a Queens native and she lives in New York City like me. Yeah, yeah. Love it. <laugh>, this is a great track record you have. It's pretty amazing.
Shama Rahman:
Thank you, Jamie.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And I'm so, I'm so glad you're here to talk about your journey through coaching and what that has been like for you. And I'm curious, some people might be like, Whoa, this woman is so impressive. She's got such an impressive resume. What would make her seek out coaching? And I'm curious, how would you answer that? What made you seek out coaching with me? I mean, we've been coaching for about a little over a year now, I think.
Shama Rahman:
Yeah, I think about a year actually, which is so interesting. It feels like longer. Um, but I think we started at the end of 2021 actually, right? Yes, we did around, yeah. Like right around this time. Um, so thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I really appreciate it, and I'm excited to reflect on the coaching journey. So, um, you know, I have had an amazing opportunity to work at like these incredible institutions. Um, and oftentimes I was so excited about the role, really ready for the role, but I would feel nervous when I got to the role almost as if I got there before I was ready. Um, and I think that's just part of like imposter syndrome, a lot of societal norms. So I think it's like kind of conditioning. Um, so up until the current role that I have, I had never been in a director level position, and I had heard that a lot of folks have difficulty going from manager to director or just like, that transition feels like harder than other kind of steps in their career, whether they go from like VP to SVP or even just like early on when you're going from assistant to associate to senior coordinator to manager, um, you know, people have just like flagged that as kind of something that's a particularly difficult, difficult moment.
So, you know, I think that was really exciting for me, but also very nerve wracking to kind of be in this new role. Um, it's also a brand new role, so there wasn't guidelines from somebody who had this role, um, previously at this organization that I could kind of follow or any handouts like handoffs to be like, This is what you should do. It was like, we're building this from scratch and we're building it from scratch on a relatively new team. So I think, you know, the newness of it was exciting and intimidating. Um, and I also wanna mention that, you know, me getting this job, um, I got the job in May, 2020, you know, very early on in the pandemic. Um, and a lot of like excitement and change and also, you know, like shifts in kind of how we were thinking about work.
Um, also coincided with just like a really difficult time in my personal life. Um, I was starting, you know, a grieving process. Um, I had lost somebody really, really close to me. Um, and I think, you know, losing my dad while I was starting this new journey in the context of the pandemic was just like a trifecta, really different, like three really difficult new journeys happening at the same time. Um, so I felt like coaching could be, you know, maybe a helpful way to work through that and to try to organize kind of all of the things that were happening. Mm.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And I remember the first time we connected, we connected over the fact that not just we're both smithies and children of immigrants in New York, but my father also passed away, uh, during the pandemic in 2020. Yeah. And sometimes when we negotiate these career transitions at the same time, we're navigating these changes in our lives at the same time. So yeah. So thanks so much for sharing that. And so tell us a little bit more about what you struggled with before coaching. I mean, you, you kind of touched on it, but like, I'm curious how it impacted your confidence and your career satisfaction.
Shama Rahman:
Yeah. Um, I think, you know, my
Goals and the way that I always approached work was I really wanted to kind of go for the organizations that I wanted to try working for. And I was really, um, fortunate that I was able to work at all these institutions, um, that have like amazing brands and name recognition and kind of like our bigger organizations where you might feel like a small fish in a big pond rather than the big fish in a small pond. And, you know, that was also advice that my dad had given, and he thought that was like a really good way to learn, where it's like you're, you know, kind of like learning from like, you know, the quote unquote, like bests in the business in any, um, you know, kind of like field that you're in. Um, but the flip side of that is when you're really young and starting out your career and you work at these big institutions, you feel really intimidated and nervous about your skill set in those settings.
And if you're not meeting what you think are the expectations, or are like the timelines that people think that things should be done, or you feel like the workload is too much and other people are giving it to you, you feel like you're supposed to be working harder and more and doing more, rather than it feeling like, Oh, there might be other external factors that could be affecting your workplace. I think for me, a lot of my earlier, early career experiences, it felt like I was kind of the thing that needed to be fixed, rather than it being like, Oh, I have all the things to do a good job and I have to change my mindset, or I have to speak up when the workload is too much, or I have to kind of shift how much effort I put into certain things and not try to be like a perfectionist on every project, et cetera.
Like, I think I was always blaming myself that I was not able to like, handle certain things or that I, yeah, just kind of like kind of putting all the onus on myself. Um, and I think a couple other things that I really struggled with and wanted to kind of work through is that I think there's so much comparison, especially in the day of social media. And when you work in institutions like art museums in New York City, it's so easy to compare your own experience with somebody else because you're like, Oh, you're in the same organization, You're in the same exact field. Like, I'm comparing my productivity and level of work to yours without kind of taking into consideration that that person might have a totally different life experience than I do. Like, just because we're two people working in the same environment doesn't mean our experiences are the same.
Doesn't mean that our working cells are the same. And also doesn't mean that, you know, they have all the strengths and you don't. I think that's another thing that we often kind of put on ourselves is that, oh, this other person is like so perfect and has all these amazing skills and is so strong in every way, and we're kind of saying to ourselves like, Oh, you're not as good as that person. But yeah, you may have a lot of skills that they admire, um, and a lot of strengths that you've honed instead that are really beneficial to the team, um, because they balance out that person. So I think just kind of that is also a factor. Um, and I think when you see people moving a lot and getting big title changes, you feel like, Oh, that person must be doing all the things that I'm not doing if that's not happening to me. But really there's so many factors that go into, you know, promotions and career changes and getting recruited, and there's just like so many factors that you have no, um, visibility to, and you're just seeing kind of the end result. Um, so I think another thing for me is like, I was comparing my day to day struggles and growth and challenges and, you know, opportunities to just like an announcement on social media. Like,
Jamie Lee:
And then you end up feeling really terrible with yourself Yeah. And end up not going for the growth that you want. And I'm saying this not as like, Oh, Shama, you did this. I'm saying this as like, this is a pattern so many of us type A driven, smart, competent women have. Yeah. Right. Assuming we need to fix ourselves, assuming that it's our fault, compare and despair, perfectionism. Like, we think this is what's gonna help us advance, is like, we need to be cruel to ourselves to advance, but in fact, what actually happens is our confidence is eroded. We don't put our hand up for the promotion and the raise we want, and then we're like in this vicious cycle of blaming ourselves.
Shama Rahman:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think another thing that I've always known about myself that I thought was, you know, maybe a hindrance to my growth is that I am not actually competitive with other people and other paths I compare myself to them, but it's not that I'm trying to compete with them. It's like, Oh, I use that as a way to make myself feel bad. Hmm. But I'm not ... I've never been competitive with other people. And the times that I have felt best in my growth and proudest of my work is when I am really just like looking inward and like focus on not competing with myself, but just kind of thinking about my own ambition and thinking about my own path. Like I am very much in Aquarius. Yeah. You know, very in my head and, you know, thinking a lot very inward. Like, I'm not really thinking about doing what everybody else is doing.
And so I think that also, you know, can feel isolating sometimes, um, when you're just on a path that, yeah, some other people might, you know, it might look the same on paper, but I think the way I've thought about moves have just been about my own. Like, you know, it's like, Oh, I think this would be good for me. Not just like, Oh, this is like a traditional path that you take XYZ steps in order to get to the next place. Um, yeah, I think, yeah, I think because I work in a more, you know, in a creative field, um, and I've switched industries also, you know, like once now, um, from museums into media, um, you know, that's a different path than someone who's just kind of like, stayed in the same industry and like moved up mm-hmm. <affirmative> or, you know, maybe taken the same kind of role, um, in different places.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And in the coaching container, we go into your head <laugh>. Yeah. Right. And so I'm curious, when you started coaching with me one on one, when was the moment you were like, Oh, this is working for me? Was there a particular moment, like an aha or a specific breakthrough that you had, you were like, Oh, this is working for me.
Shama Rahman:
Yeah, I wanna, um, just step back for a second because I think the first time I knew that this would be really helpful for me mm-hmm. Was even before we started officially coaching, which is our first session together,
Jamie Lee:
Um, Oh, you mean the consultation? Yeah. During free consultation.
Shama Rahman:
Yes. During the free consultation. Um, I just felt very seen. I thought the fact that we connected on so many personal and professional overlaps was just really helpful. I felt like I was talking to somebody who could empathize with the fact that I had, you know, lost like one of the most important people, you know, one of, Yeah. Like, just like one of the most valuable people in my life. One of, like the people I loved most in my life. Um, you know, my dad was so, so, and is so still actively like, so important to me. And I think talking to someone who also understood how grief shows up on a day to day basis was really helpful. Um, and I think I felt hopeful that even with grief and even, you know, continuing that experience of grieving somebody, um, that I could still focus on other areas of growth, um, Yeah.
And that they could live side by side, and I didn't have to, you know, like, there's no way to get over grief. Um, there's no way to be done with grief. So I think figuring out how to live with that and still work on other things, and also to use that to like, make him proud, I think, you know, has also been really helpful. Um, so I just felt like our consultation, like, I was like, this feels like the right fit. Um, and so I think that was really exciting. I would say the first time I felt like coaching was really impacting my day to day, um, is when I had been putting something off for months. Um, and every time I saw an email about it and notification, I would just immediately get anxious and wanna avoid it. And it was stressing me out, and it made me feel like I had, you know, it was related to a project that I didn't get to complete.
And I was like, so down on myself, like all of these factors were just coming up a lot. And I kept being like, Oh, someone's gonna be mad at me if I do it so late, et cetera. And I was thinking about it on a weekend, feeling anxious about it, and I thought there was a little back on myself, and I decided to just do it. And I was really emotional. It caused a lot of anxiety. But I was thinking about, um, you know, something you taught me in coaching, which is you have to be comfortable with discomfort. You have to work through that. And by accepting that it was be uncomfortable, I was able to complete the task, and then I was able to like breathe after. So, and it took, I think 20 minutes for the months of kind of avoiding
Jamie Lee:
And, and quick question, what kind of feedback did you get on that?
Shama Rahman:
Like, it was totally fine. You know, I think that's the other thing. It's like we worry so much about what other people will say in response, and so that stops us from just kind of completing things, even if it's late. Um, and yeah, that was just really, um, it was a true aha moment of like, Oh, like, just do it. <laugh>, this gets done. It's gonna feel uncomfortable, it's gonna feel a little painful. Um, and yeah.
Jamie Lee:
Right. And that was because you were able to honor yourself, your, your grief, your anxiety, and instead of beating yourself up about it, you were able to meet yourself and just like, Okay, we're just gonna go to work and get it done.
Shama Rahman:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie Lee:
So, good. Thank you for sharing that. And, um, shameless plug, if somebody was listening to this, is also thinking about booking a free consultation. You can book a free consultation with me. The link is, is going to be in the show notes. And I think, you know, um, what Shama just talked about is so important, being able to meet ourselves with compassion, even when we have all of the emotional discomfort, including grief, including anxiety, right? Cause we don't take action in our careers because of what we're feeling, or we're trying not to feel what we're feeling. But like, if we can allow ourselves, then we're unstoppable. There's nothing we can't ask for. There's nothing we can't do. So I'm sh I'm curious, Shama, for you, what is sort of like your biggest takeaway from this experience, uh, about yourself, about others, or maybe about your career in general? Like, what has been the biggest learning from the coaching journey for you?
Shama Rahman:
I think what you mentioned about, you know, the fact that if we meet ourselves where we are and are compassionate at ourselves, with ourselves, instead of feeling like we have to suppress our true selves and our emotions and the way we really are in order to quote un quote, like grow in a corporate landscape. I think that has been so valuable to me. Um, when I am emotional and need to take a day off, or if I'm having a really tough moment, you know, grieving, feeling sad, feeling emotional if other stuff comes up, you know, allowing myself to rest and take a beat means when I get back to work, I can be positive.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. You don't have to burn yourself out.
Shama Rahman:
You don't have to burn yourself out. And I think we're kind of fed this weird, like, capitalist myth that you have to be on and a hundred percent all the time in order to grow to where you wanna be. And I feel like in the last year, I've actually allowed myself to feel more often to take breaks more often, to take time off more often. Um, I'm still not where I wanna be in terms of like taking true vacations and unplugging, but we're working on it. But I think, I think that is kind of really valuable. And I think that also has to do with being a child of immigrants. Um, you know, my parents worked so incredibly hard to give me everything that I have. Yeah. And my families have my, you know, extended families have worked really hard to help us get to where we are.
And it felt like, oh, it would've been a disservice to them if I didn't work 24, 7, 7 days a week nonstop, that, you know, it would mean I'm lazy or I'm taking their efforts for granted, or I'm not a hard worker, or that I'm, you know, like stuff like that. I think that is stuff that I was telling myself. And I realized like, no, actually my parents worked really hard for us to be able to use our, you know, like, talents in certain ways, and also like, in order for us to rest and take a beat and take time off if we need it. Um, so I think that has been really valuable. Um, again, yeah, I think I've just like unpacked a lot of things about, um, the way my, like family also like, worked and treated work and approached work. Like, it's been really cool to see like some of the myths that I kind of internalize are not actually how they feel.
Um, so I think that was also really helpful. Um, and yeah, I think, you know, another thing that has been really significant is, um, well, two things. One is more of a tactical thing, which is using, you know, one of the tools that you taught me, um, like, you know, kind of unpacking like circumstances, thoughts, feelings, actions, results. Um, in moments where I feel personally, um, like upset about something, something some, you know, some somebody did something and I'm taking it personally. I use that tool to kind of unpack what it is actually about. Um, or something happens at work and there is some critical feedback, and I'm feeling personally offended or upset that I got negative feedback at all. Like, I'm supposed to be a perfect person. So that has really helped. Um, and then I think the other thing that's kind of a broader thing is I feel like I told myself so many things as black and white truths, um, over the years, and
Jamie Lee:
Like, all or nothing.
Shama Rahman:
Yes. All or nothing. And also that the, you know, like one comment, one person made like 10 years ago is still my truth. And I think when we are, you know, I think especially as like women immigrant, you know, I'm, I'm an immigrant myself, like women of color, people of color, it's like we are conditioned to think that what other people say is the truth rather than what we believe and what is actually our truth.
Jamie Lee:
Right.
Shama Rahman:
And so I think,
Jamie Lee:
But I would add even further, like, we haven't been taught that we just get to decide what we get to believe about ourselves. Definitely. We have that authority. We can reclaim that authority. Yeah. And authority is not a bad.
Shama Rahman:
Exactly. Yeah. And I think the patriarchy is also involved in that. Like, if, you know, like a man in a powerful position says something, you're like supposed to assume that that's true. It's like, where did that, you know, like, like why is that the truth? Instead of what you think is the truth? Right. So I think like layers like that have been really helpful. And I think one of the things that's come out is that, you know, for example, I always told myself and thought I'm disorganized. Like I'm all over the place and I'm not, you know, um, I'm not as together as I could be. I think it was less about me being like actively messy and disorganized, but more about, Oh, I could always be better. And I've just realized over the last year, like, wait, I am actually really organized and I've gotten that feedback, um, you know, in the workplace, which
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And you actively build evidence for yourself. Yes. And you directed your brain to look at that evidence, be like, Oh, actually, yeah, my work is getting done. It's organized bullet points. Yeah. Outline.
Shama Rahman:
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, another part of that is like being prepared. Like, I think I always thought, Oh, I could be, I could have prepared more. And it's like, well, instead of thinking you could have prepared more, and then beating yourself up and tying yourself out from actually preparing, just starting to prepare and doing as much as you can, that's enough for that moment. Um,
Jamie Lee:
This is so good. And so what were you able to accomplish, or I'm curious, how did all these changes, right. Learning how to take breaks to give yourself acknowledgement, Right. To believe new things about yourself, to have a greater sense of authority over what you think and believe about yourself. Like how did that influence your career trajectory?
Shama Rahman:
Um, I mean, I feel like I'm, I feel like I can recognize growth and I feel I'm, you know, actively growing in the way that I imagined someone would grow in a role. You know, I always thought,
Jamie Lee:
Like, how,
Shama Rahman:
Yeah. So I think when I started this director level job, I thought, Oh, a director is like X, Y, Z, and I didn't have a plan or think about like how I could get there, or I kept thinking, Oh, I'm at just point A and I need to get to point Z instead of being like, Oh, I just have to take one step towards point B, b, like, building on top of each other. And I think coaching has really helped me take just like the next step, like
Jamie Lee:
Right. Identify those steps one at a time. Like delegating Yeah. Hiring people, managing them, having a conversation about your career growth.
Shama Rahman:
Exactly. And even with tasks, it's like, oh, if, you know, as like a brand strategy director, you might think, Oh, the alt, you know, like one of a, like a big goal might be like a huge like brand campaign across different media and like, it's international and it's reaching all these people and you know, like there's so many parts of it. Like, that might be like a big goal that you're working towards. You can't get to the big goal if you don't do like the next step that you're immediately passed with. Right. So I think it's just like, oh, doing the things that are much smaller, smaller in scale, it doesn't mean that you're so far from that step. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's actually the opposite. It's like, oh, this small step is actually gonna help you get to that big step.
Jamie Lee:
I love it. And so what I'm hearing is that instead of getting stuck and compare and despair, like I'm at point A, look at those people at point Z, I'm never gonna get there. Instead of that, you break, you break that pattern and you say, Okay, what are points B to C to D to E to F And let's get ourselves there one step at a time without beating ourselves up, without burning ourselves out. Right. One step at a time with kindness to ourselves. Yeah.
Shama Rahman:
Um, totally. And I think, you know, interwoven to that is like, we've been working together for a full year now, um, and there have been bad days. There have been weeks where I don't feel at a hundred percent and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm not producing my best work, or I might be, you know, uh, delayed on a deadline. It doesn't mean that that is gonna be forever. It doesn't mean that that is me all the time. And I think it's been really helpful to see, even when those things happen, I can bounce back and overall I am in a good place in terms of like where I wanna be career-wise Yeah. And work wise. And that's being reflected by the feedback I'm getting.
Jamie Lee:
Totally. So you're getting positive feedback, and I've also seen you take action, Right. Ask for raise and get it, create a vision for your career growth, like a long term career growth from here and articulate it, you know, for yourself, make that really vivid and clear with, you know, great details. I mean, Shama put together this amazing mood board for herself for, um, envisioning herself as a chief brand officer in the future. Right. Yeah. And I thought that was so well done, and that helped inform how you articulate your vision, uh, where you are as well. So these are all the steps that I've seen you take, um, with a lot of grace, but also a lot of self confidence.
Shama Rahman:
Yeah. It's been really exciting. And I think one of the things, um, you know, even talking about that kind of plan I put together of kind of like what I enjoy about my current role, the skill sets that I hope to, you know, learn in the future, and then kind of like putting, you know, putting it out there, um, about my like ultimate dream role. I think what's been helpful is like, Oh, I felt uncomfortable doing that, and I still did it. Yeah. And I think what was really exciting is to hear someone say, Yes, I think you would be great in that role, and I think that's definitely doable for you. Um, and so if I hadn't felt uncomfortable and named that, I wouldn't have gotten that feedback to hear like, is it realistic or is it something that I can achieve? I would just have been in my little hole thinking, Oh, I can never get there.
Jamie Lee:
Right. And of course, of course your, uh, supervisor, your boss, they got on your side because you got on your side first. Definitely. And I think that's like the key thing here that we're talking about, which is so hard for us because we've been socialized to not be on our size to be ourselves up to compare ourselves to other people, and to assume like, Oh, I can never make, I can never do that. But when you get on your own side Yeah. Other people will follow because you show them how to do it.
Shama Rahman:
Totally. Yeah. Um, I think it's really improved how I approach, um, boundaries at work mm-hmm. <affirmative> and just have, I think in the past I've had to, you know, I've made myself available to be an emotional soundboard for a lot of colleagues mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and people have turned to me when they're having trouble in the workplace, um, or, you know, whether it's like, you know, emotionally, personally or professionally or there's complaints about other people, or they just need like an outlet to like kind of hear them out. And it wasn't often about work or about the projects we're doing together. It felt like they just needed, they just wanted to vent. Hmm. And that would exhaust me because I was putting so much labor into doing that work for other people. I wasn't really thinking about like how much energy was going towards that and how I could better use that energy to maybe improve like, the situation for myself and for, you know, in the workplace. Like, rather than it being like, Oh, I'm just getting tired listening to other people talk about things that kind of, you know, often don't have to do with work. Um, you know, instead now it's like, okay, if there is an issue or a challenge, excuse me, um, if there is an issue or a challenge in the workplace and you wanna talk about it, how can I, how can we put boundaries around that? How can we limit, you know, like the venting versus the actual, like problem solving?
Jamie Lee:
And tell us what was the shift inside of you that helped you be able to set these boundaries and not, maybe doormat is not the right word, but like, have to be like this, um, emotional labor. Like have to be this person who has to do all the emotional labor for all their work friends. Like, you stop being that person.
Shama Rahman:
Yeah. Um, I think what was really helpful is me just realizing I have to finish my own projects first and give myself time to do all that before I give other people time. Um, and I actually heard one of my really amazing friends who's just like, total boss. She's so good at her job, she's so creative, she's so good at managing people. She told me recently, you know, like, I felt like I was giving my best listening at work instead of in my own life, you know, about her, most of me. And I think that's also just kind of a shift we have to do about, like, the workplace is not your whole life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I think, you know, I wanna be there for people. I wanna be empathetic, but I also think we need to put our own projects first and kind of get our own work done. And then you can also listen to people and actively listen without being anxious about the workload that you're kind of like, like avoiding right now.
Jamie Lee:
A hundred percent. Yeah. And it's like,
Shama Rahman:
Yeah.
Jamie Lee:
It's like giving to yourself first Yes. Prioritizing yourself,
Shama Rahman:
And then you can give better to other people.
Jamie Lee:
Yes.
Shama Rahman:
Yes. I think for me, what I realized was that me giving so much time to other folks was making me resent them, um, in a difficult way. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I realize it's because, oh, I'm actually not getting what I need to get done first, so that when I listen to them, I'm actually getting anxious and upset that I'm listening to them. Yeah. Whereas now it's like, okay, I'm managing expectations for my own projects I'm giving to myself. I'm doing that first so that when I do end up talking to somebody and they need to come to me, I can give them my full self and actually actively listen and I feel like be a better colleague.
Jamie Lee:
This is so good. So you can prioritize yourself, you can honor the hard emotions in your life. You can give yourself breaks and rest, and you can still get promoted, get better paid in your career. In fact, it, if you do all the things that you just talked about, it makes the the last thing even easier to do. Totally. That's, that's what you're the walking, talking example of
Shama Rahman:
<laugh>. Yeah. And I think what's exciting is in the past I thought, Oh, if you don't get a promotion at a certain, like very strict period, that means you're not good at your job. But what I'm really exciting, excited about right now is I feel like I'm growing to be good at the role that I'm at, instead of just chasing the next step. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, something that I always wanted to get to, because I felt like when I was in a compare and despair situation, I was always thinking, Oh, I have to catch up and like, you know, get to the next level because everybody else is advancing without me. And now it's okay. I really just wanna be a great director. Um, you know, and I wanna spend as much time as I can in this role doing all the projects that it entails and being excited, um, and growing, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think that's what's really exciting, instead of me going to like the next step when I still have some work to do here.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. And that's when you also have more power, when you have more confidence is when you're like, I'm not in any rush. Yeah. Get to the next level. Yeah. So what advice do you have for other people, uh, in a similar situation or background as you somebody who is also perhaps a woman of color, somebody who also has experienced some grief in their life, somebody who also struggles with perfectionism. How would you, Yeah. I'm curious what advice you would give them.
Shama Rahman:
Yeah. I think, um, one thing I wanted to give a little background out about before I answer this question is that I'd actually thought about doing a coaching program at other points in my career. I think when I worked at the New York Times as as an associate manager, I started thinking, Oh, maybe like the transition from museums to media. I might need something. Um, and I did a couple of like, free consultations, and I just realized I couldn't, um, make the financial investment at that time. And also the time commitment, like I just like, didn't feel like it was quite the right time for me. Um, so even though I hadn't taken on those paid coaching programs, um, I took different, you know, workshops with coaches, including with you, Jamie, and that's how I learned about you. And so, and I started following you and kind of like reading your advice.
And so I think, you know, getting used to the idea that coaching is something a lot of people do and use and, you know, kind of coming to a point where I felt like I was in the right place to do it, um, was really exciting. Like, it's, you don't have to force yourself in another comparative spare situation where you see, Oh, everyone's doing coaching, I should do coaching. It's like, really just like, spend some time think about it and, you know, see if it's like what you need right now. Um, and, you know, I think it was a really, really valuable thing for me, um, at that point. Um, I would say, you know, naming your truth with your coach, that's something that I did with you, which was really, um, exciting and helpful. Um, just like kind of explaining my hesitancy, explaining where I was.
I think all of that was just really, um, honest and helpful, um, to kind of like make the decision to do coaching right now. Um, and I think, you know, the investment in coaching for me has had actually really tangible benefits. Like, you know, I think different workplaces have different, um, you know, reimbursements for coaching, so that's something for you to look into. Um, but I think for me it's like, Oh, I just feel such a drastic difference day to day going into my workspace than I did before. And that to me, feels invaluable. Um, so I think, you know, uh, and I, one thing I'll say is for other folks who are, um, women of color, people of color, folks who come from more marginalized backgrounds and identities, like a lot of the people you're comparing yourself to are using coaching. So don't compare yourself who hasn't been coached, who hasn't had all of these privileges and benefits and kind of like, um, you know, know how that's passed on from their families that have like corporate experience, um, to your situation.
Um, my family is incredible. Um, my parents are both like super intelligent, um, human beings who had a small business in Jackson Heights, and that was their, you know, that was our like, day to day life. And so when I started working in museums, no one in my family had worked in museums. No one in my family had worked in art institutions or creative, you know, places like that. So I was going into this totally fresh and totally knew I didn't have any context. And I worked with people whose families were very familiar with similar situation, you know, similar environments as like museums we were working in. Some of them had family friends who had gotten them their jobs, you know, unlike me who was kind of cold going in there. So I think just remembering that you're comparing your own unique experience, um, which is so valuable.
Like, I think about my parents small business, and I feel like that has influenced so much of kind of like my interests and how I approach things, and just kind of like my thinking of the world. So it's like, I think that makes it really unique and special. Um, but it's not the same as someone who understands like office politics right off the bat. <laugh>, like, I, I didn't have any context for that. Um, when I worked in media, I didn't know anyone who had worked in, you know, in a newsroom or, uh, media company, um, from my immediate, or like, it could be an extended family. So I think, you know, it would be unfair for us who are entering these institutions for the first time without that, um, kind of like generational knowledge and experience to think, Oh, I should know everything already. Um, <laugh>. So I think, yeah, that's like something that I just wanna kind of like end with. So I think coaching has been helpful to kind of like frame all that and remember all that.
Jamie Lee:
Thank you so much. I couldn't have asked for a better endorsement of coaching, and for for a second there, my, uh, home pod Siri went off, uh, <laugh>, please excuse that. But yeah, I, I, I love what you said, and when you were talking about being the first in your generation here in America to be spearheading this career trailblazing really right within your family, um, the phrase that popped up that popped up in my head was, we're living the dreams of our ancestors right now.
Shama Rahman:
Definitely
Jamie Lee:
The impossible dreams. And, and just, just an aside, but my parents also ran a small business in Jackson Height, Queens <laugh>. That's another thing that Shama and I share in common, Uh, such a small world. But, um, so proud of all of the progress that you have made, and I really am, um, astounded and I'm, I'm so glad that you're here to share your story because I know there's gonna be lots and lots of women who listen to this, who's gonna be really, um, inspired to, to give themselves more of a break, to be kinder to themselves and to learn that, Oh, actually, when I'm kinder with myself, I progress even faster than I think I, than I thought I could have.
Shama Rahman:
Definitely.
Jamie Lee:
Yeah. Thank you so much, Shama.
Shama Rahman:
Yeah. Thank you, Jamie. All
Jamie Lee:
Right.
[Music]
If you’ve found this helpful, and if you want 1:1 support, so you can go from where you are today all the way to tangible results in your career, you’re invited to book a free sales call with me. The link is in the show notes. Whether you decide yes or no to coaching, I guarantee you will walk away with your custom blueprint to confidence, so you know how you can get promoted and better paid even if you hate office politics. Talk soon!